How would you rule? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

As someone who has only been playing serious poker for a little over a year, I would like some clarity on this. When considering my bet, and formulating how much I want to push out, I'll often grab a stack or a few chips and begin to stack and count them next to the rest of my chips. Sometimes adding more or taking some away before eventually pushing out and/or declaring a bet amount. This new stack might be somewhat forward from where they were. But it's well back of the printed betting line on the table we play on. Are you saying as soon as I move chips forward and let go of them, that's my bet? Because that's never been called on me by my group. I've always been of the impression that we do consider the printed line on the felt to be the line of demarcation regarding placing a bet.

The most important thing to know is that the rules vary. Some casinos still enforce the betting line (or at least they did pre-Covid.)
What you describe is common and fine - cutting out your chips in the 6-12 inches in front of you is good everywhere I’ve played. But at a home game (or a casino) just ask when you sit down. That’s exactly what I did when I played a game where the table had a racetrack and everybody kept their chips on the track - is it okay to cut out my bets in front of the track?

 

[JustinInMN]

As someone who has only been playing serious poker for a little over a year, I would like some clarity on this. When considering my bet, and formulating how much I want to push out, I'll often grab a stack or a few chips and begin to stack and count them next to the rest of my chips. Sometimes adding more or taking some away before eventually pushing out and/or declaring a bet amount. This new stack might be somewhat forward from where they were. But it's well back of the printed betting line on the table we play on. Are you saying as soon as I move chips forward and let go of them, that's my bet? Because that's never been called on me by my group. I've always been of the impression that we do consider the printed line on the felt to be the line of demarcation regarding placing a bet.

You have Straight Flush status but only playing for a year. Priorities are straight, love the chips first and the game second .

This is the text in Robert's Rules for Private Games.

(Under Section 14 No limit rules)

4. A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action.

5. If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement.

So "released into the pot" is the verbiage and not "forward motion." (Probably me guilty of more NFL thinking) So no, I would say counting near your stack is not releasing toward the pot. But picking up those chips and going toward the pot with them and releasing them there is the point it becomes binding, regardless of any line.

But again, this seems pretty clear the the practice of dropping chips out of a barrel is completely legit and should never be considered an "angle."

 

[JustinInMN]

I also have to admit to kind of liking how the California stream games treat this kind of issue. The pros almost always say something like “you can do whatever you want”. I realize they are reverse angling a bit but also making things easier on the non pros. Giving back a bit of EV. Obviously works in that environment but would not work in a tournament setting.

I like how this situation was handled and as with most things context is everything.

This is the truth and how I deal with situations in live games. If I haven't acted I am going to give the opposition the change to do what they want provided there's been no intervening action. (including my own.)

That the real issue here. Players are only "damaged" by this if they reveal their action relying on a legitimate wager. If there is doubt, it's okay to protect yourself and hold back action for a bit and get clarity.

If there has been no intervening action, there should be a lot of leeway to correct, especially if it's an occasional error from a new player. Now that said, you don't want to be so lenient that everyone is waiting on every single action. That's bad for game flow.

 

[Darson]

To me, it's not a string bet if someone picks up 6 chips, drops three over the betting line by accident, and a second later verbalizes their bet of all six, and puts the rest over the line. No one here has fumbled chips before? Unlikely.

This is about as close a description to what actually happened without showing a video.

Just to be clear this case was slightly the opposite. Some chips fell backwards behind the line rather than forwards.

This is libelous, litigable, larcenous and a lot more words beginning with “L” (not including lickable)

 

[JustinInMN]

To me, it's not a string bet if someone picks up 6 chips, drops three over the betting line by accident, and a second later verbalizes their bet of all six, and puts the rest over the line. No one here has fumbled chips before? Unlikely.

If you fumble the chips you should either say "30" right away, or call "time" on yourself to prevent anyone from acting after you so you can clean up the bet. Those methods protect your action. Of course verbal before you move chips is the best habit in NL, maybe that's why no one thinks I'm a jerk If I move a barrel of fives to bet 60, I've declared it before moving chips.

 

[JMC9389]

If you fumble the chips you should either say "30" right away, or call "time" on yourself to prevent anyone from acting after you so you can clean up the bet. Those methods protect your action. Of course verbal before you move chips is the best habit in NL, maybe that's why no one thinks I'm a jerk If I move a barrel of fives to bet 60, I've declared it before moving chips.

Yep. Verbal action first, chips later is the best habit I can tell any player new to the game to follow.

 

[glynn]

I will add to Justin's reasoned posts that an "angle" implies intent.

Most people have caught on, but there is a vast gulf between not liking something and calling thousands of unwitting poker players across at least the Americas and Europe "angleshooters" because you do not like that extremely normal thing.

 

[TheBigTater]

Forward motion & release is really the only thing you can do with a table without a betting line. But as things evolve most (not all I realize) tables have betting lines now, I don't understand why they aren't used as a tool. So does everyone just put them on the tables for aesthetics? What point do they serve if they aren't used for a point of demarcation between the non-betting area & the pot. Otherwise I'm perplexed why is there a betting line at all if we as the poker playing community aren't going to use them.

I've been playing since way before you saw a betting line on table except for the rare occasion. Then it was sort of the given rule of forward motion & release but people still fiddled/cut & restacked chips infront of them, it was always a judgement call on whether you were betting or maybe not..... Once betting lines came around most of the games I played in I learned that stacking/cutting/restacking/recutting out chips behind the line is ok, whatever your want to do, but move chips over the line is putting them in the pot. It seemed to eliminate the need for a judgement call simply, there is the betting line, tada. IMO that is what betting lines are for otherwise leave them off the table. And of course verbalizing before you move chips into the pot solves all of the problems anyway.

Still for the OP, description I'd say the bet is $15.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

You have Straight Flush status but only playing for a year. Priorities are straight, love the chips first and the game second .

I said "seriously." Been playing poker and other card games my whole life. But poker games were mostly nickel / dime stakes with family and close friends. No official rules. Very loose play. Lot's of "I'll call your quarter and raise you 50 cents" sort of stuff.

Wanting some cool chips brought me to PCF 3.5 years ago, and then being on here made me want to find some more serious games. And PCF meetups.

This is the text in Robert's Rules for Private Games.

(Under Section 14 No limit rules)


So "released into the pot" is the verbiage and not "forward motion." (Probably me guilty of more NFL thinking) So no, I would say counting near your stack is not releasing toward the pot. But picking up those chips and going toward the pot with them and releasing them there is the point it becomes binding, regardless of any line.

But again, this seems pretty clear the the practice of dropping chips out of a barrel is completely legit and should never be considered an "angle."

Okay, thanks. I didn't think what I was doing was wrong. since I've seen the pros do it in televised poker.

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't understand why they aren't used as a tool. So does everyone just put them on the tables for aesthetics? What point do they serve if they aren't used for a point of demarcation between the non-betting area & the pot. Otherwise I'm perplexed why is there a betting line at all if we as the poker playing community aren't going to use them.

They do assist players as to how to put chips close enough to the dealer for easy scooping but again as I said before, even though "the line is in the pot" seems a simple rule on the surface, in reality it could become an "anything goes behind the line" game would invite several more angles than "chips released to the pot" does.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Lot's of "I'll call your quarter and raise you 50 cents" sort of stuff. .

This is still 100% legal in my game only if said like you're Foghorn Leghorn.

 

[bergs]

It's exciting to see Pile Theory broached this early. It usually takes a lot more foundation building until we finally get there around Page 8, if at all.

I’ll give you pile theory…(heads to Taco Bell).

 

[ArielVer18]

How would you rule?

Post flop, when checked to, a player picks up a stack of chips, moves the stack over the betting line. A few chips fall off the top, back towards his stack and behind the line. He then releases three red chips ($15) over the line. Then a second later says $30, and fishes the chips that fell backwards to complete the bet.

What does your house rule say? In most places that uses some variation of "release is binding," the bet is $15. Even if the chips didn't fall off the top, how can this player think his bet will be $30 by only releasing three chips worth $15?

 

[MrCatPants]

What does your house rule say? In most places that uses some variation of "release is binding," the bet is $15. Even if the chips didn't fall off the top, how can this player think his bet will be $30 by only releasing three chips worth $15?

I dont have a house rule that defines this situation. Verbal is binding if actions conflict, no string betting without a verbal, and the one chip is a call rule.

 

[maloviz]

I hate it when people grab an entire stack just to drop a couple off the bottom for the bet. Feel like an angle to me. I'd say this is obviously a $15 bet, especially since it sounds like they could have just dropped more out of their hands.

Either way, I'd ask the player to not move more chips past the betting line (even while holding them) than they intend to bet with.