Substantial action rulings (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

I am curious how people would rule in the following similar but slightly different situations in your home games. Each involves players failing to act in turn:

#1 :::
On the flop, there is an UTG bet. Next player “Sleepy” has his head down in his phone. Player after him calls out of turn. Next player calls. Sleepy wakes up and says, “Hey, I did not act.”

#2 :::
On the flop, Sleepy is UTG (first to act) but does nothing, as he is again looking at his phone instead. Bet / call from players to his left. Sleepy says “Wait, I never acted.”

#3 ::: On the flop, Sleepy is first to act again. There are three checks and then a bet to his left. Sleepy finally objects.

NOTE: In all three scenarios, no one snap-acted, i.e. Sleepy had a little time to act in turn but was distracted. The dealer failed to notice / stop the action to prevent the problem arising.

But if the actions out of turn happened very fast, would your rulings be different?

I’ll give my answers in comments in a bit…

 

[Pokerdweebz]

#1 Sleepy can call or fold
#2 Sleepy checked
#3 Sleepy checked

 

[Bacon Dad]

I don’t think the speed of the action matters. Every player has a responsibility to follow the action accordingly.

If Sleepy was contemplating his bet/cards in all instances and the next player acts too fast to rush him, Sleepy would speak up immediately and eventually should tell the dealer to make Mr. Impatient to cool his jets.

Otherwise, if Sleepy was not paying attention, too bad-so sad.
1-fold
2-check
3-don’t understand. Did everyone check around the table and then someone bet on the left of Sleepy? Wouldn’t a new card hit the street before that could happen?

I say kick Sleepy in the nuts to wake him up or make him leave.

 

[Taghkanic]

3-don’t understand. Did everyone check around the table and then someone bet on the left of Sleepy? Wouldn’t a new card hit the street before that could happen?

Sleepy is first to act. Multiple checks until the button, who bets.

Question here is whether the multiple checks combine with the single affirmative act (the button bet) add up to substantial action. Normally I would think a bet and a call or a bet/raise would qualify.

 

[Taghkanic]

My thinking:

I agree with the folks above.

My one caveat would be if there was a very fast bet out of turn and an instacall. If Sleepy could not have reasonably interceded in time to prevent it, even if he was 100% attentive, then for the good of the game I’d back it up to him. (Not sure if he then checks do the out of turn actions become binding?)

 

[Bacon Dad]

Gotcha.

I would consider that substantial action. I don’t think a casino would unwind that. So Sleep can fold/call/raise.

IMO, #3 worked out in Sleepy’s advantage because he saw everyone’s action before he had make one himself (if he picked his eyes up off his phone).

 

[Bacon Dad]

@Taghkanic - you post some interesting questions on rulings. Thanks!

Is this a home game or at a card club or casino?

 

[Taghkanic]

IMO, #3 worked out in Sleepy’s advantage because he saw everyone’s action before he had make one himself (if he picked his eyes up off his phone).

I assume part of the rationale for the rule is not just to deter out-of-turn and inattentive play, but also angling for the reason above. Someone could hide their cards and look uninterested in the hand just to preview what others want to do.

 

[Bacon Dad]

^^^ Exactly! Great point.

 

[Taghkanic]

@Taghkanic - you post some interesting questions on rulings. Thanks!

Is this a home game or at a card club or casino?

Private reasonably-raked weekly game in a home, but with dealers, high hand jackpots, bad beats, regular bomb pots, 72 game, free food/drinks provided, other promotions. So more like a club.

 

[LowerBama1714]

Sleepy needs to keep up with the (obviously much faster) pace of play…the other players can also berate him over and over again to make him act. This is why the STFU chips are so great…they form the “stack of shame” at the end of the night.

 

[DuckFat]

#1 :::
On the flop, there is an UTG bet. Next player “Sleepy” has his head down in his phone. Player after him calls out of turn. Next player calls. Sleepy wakes up and says, “Hey, I did not act.”

Action goes back to Sleepy, if he calls/folds then the other 2 calls stand, if he raises the subsequent calls are void and they have option. Players who are paying attention know who's turn it is so it seems they chose to act without Sleepy's action instead of getting his attention. If they chose to do this because Sleepy is constantly disrupting the flow of the game then Sleepy would be warned that his hand will be auto folded in the future.

#2 :::
On the flop, Sleepy is UTG (first to act) but does nothing, as he is again looking at his phone instead. Bet / call from players to his left. Sleepy says “Wait, I never acted.”

Sleepy checked, too bad. There's no excuse here, pay attention.

#3 ::: On the flop, Sleepy is first to act again. There are three checks and then a bet to his left. Sleepy finally objects.

Again, Sleepy checked, too bad. There's no excuse here, pay attention.

After so many repeat offenses and warnings, Sleepy's hand should be auto folded by the dealer due to potential angling and disruption of the game. Even if his option was to check. If he doesn't like that he can pay attention or leave.

 

[Bacon Dad]

Sleepy needs to keep up with the (obviously much faster) pace of play…the other players can also berate him over and over again to make him act. This is why the STFU chips are so great…they form the “stack of shame” at the end of the night.

Wait. Is that what the STFU chips are for?
I see them around but have no idea they actually serve a purpose!
(Full disclosure - I never looked it up.)

 

[Taghkanic]

Action goes back to Sleepy, if he calls/folds then the other 2 calls stand, if he raises the subsequent calls are void and they have option. Players who are paying attention know who's turn it is so it seems they chose to act without Sleepy's action instead of getting his attention. If they chose to do this because Sleepy is constantly disrupting the flow of the game then Sleepy would be warned that his hand will be auto folded in the future.


Sleepy checked, too bad. There's no excuse here, pay attention.


Again, Sleepy checked, too bad. There's no excuse here, pay attention.

After so many repeat offenses and warnings, Sleepy's hand should be auto folded by the dealer due to potential angling and disruption of the game. Even if his option was to check. If he doesn't like that he can pay attention or leave.

Sleepy didn’t do this three times. I listed different variations on the action to tease out the differences in how they might be handled.

I’ve seen these situations arise with more than one player in the game in question. The host doesn’t necessarily handle them consistently.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I am curious how people would rule in the following similar but slightly different situations in your home games. Each involves players failing to act in turn:

#1 :::
On the flop, there is an UTG bet. Next player “Sleepy” has his head down in his phone. Player after him calls out of turn. Next player calls. Sleepy wakes up and says, “Hey, I did not act.”

#2 :::
On the flop, Sleepy is UTG (first to act) but does nothing, as he is again looking at his phone instead. Bet / call from players to his left. Sleepy says “Wait, I never acted.”

#3 ::: On the flop, Sleepy is first to act again. There are three checks and then a bet to his left. Sleepy finally objects.

NOTE: In all three scenarios, no one snap-acted, i.e. Sleepy had a little time to act in turn but was distracted. The dealer failed to notice / stop the action to prevent the problem arising.

But if the actions out of turn happened very fast, would your rulings be different?

I’ll give my answers in comments in a bit…

NO PHONES is the easiest way to resolve this. You want to use your phone get up & excuse yourself!

 

[LowerBama1714]

Wait. Is that what the STFU chips are for?
I see them around but have no idea they actually serve a purpose!
(Full disclosure - I never looked it up.)

That’s how I use them. Give everyone a chip…they end up getting passed around. It’s a fun way to get people’s attention.

 

[DuckFat]

Sleepy didn’t do this three times. I listed different variations on the action to tease out the differences in how they might be handled.

I’ve seen these situations arise with more than one player in the game in question. The host doesn’t necessarily handle them consistently.

Doesn't change my answers.

 

[ArielVer18]

I don't think current poker rules is enough to support a consistent ruling to each scenario. However, it's a longstanding rule that Sleepy will lose the right to act after substantial action and will be at the mercy of the floorperson in all three scenario. Modern rules will clarify that Sleepy must protect his interest in his hand and is responsible for following the action.

In general, floorperson will rule Sleepy isn't allowed to make any aggressive action after substantial action occurred.

#1: Sleepy can call or fold
#2: he checked. Are there any other live players after the bet and call? If it's the same bet with it gets back to Sleepy, he can call or fold (no check/raise). If the bet gets raised, Sleepy has his full range of options.
#3: he checked. does "to his left" mean Sleepy is next to act? He can call or fold.

If this is a reoccurring problem, floorperson has the option to simply rule the hand dead. I've seen this with drunks who were alert enough preflop to put chips in but fell asleep post.

 

[BGinGA]

No use of electronic devices allowed while in a hand.

Hand is ruled dead in all three variations. Get with the program or gtfo.

 

[JustinInMN]

#1 :::
On the flop, there is an UTG bet. Next player “Sleepy” has his head down in his phone. Player after him calls out of turn. Next player calls. Sleepy wakes up and says, “Hey, I did not act.”

Sleepy's hand is dead failing to act facing action and 3 players having acted. In a super casual situation, I might let sleepy act with a warning that this will be a dead hand next time.

#2 :::
On the flop, Sleepy is UTG (first to act) but does nothing, as he is again looking at his phone instead. Bet / call from players to his left. Sleepy says “Wait, I never acted.”

Sleepy's hand is dead for the same reason as above. He is facing the big blind.

#3 ::: On the flop, Sleepy is first to act again. There are three checks and then a bet to his left. Sleepy finally objects.

Sleepy could be interpreted to have checked here through inaction and can act in turn when the action comes back to him.

Broadly, it sounds like the issue is Sleepy isn't paying attention, in a worst case, he's using this for cover to his advantage, which is why even though I mentioned a super casual alternate ruling, I wouldn't rush to use it unless it was truly a one-time issue and maybe the other players are at fault for acting too quickly?

But that's the larger decision here, sleepy needs to be paying attention. Is his distraction innocent or nefarious? Given he's expecting to be accommodated when this happens.

 

[Taghkanic]

Sleepy is a big hockey fan and is constantly checking scores or even watching games on his phone while he plays.

 

[JustinInMN]

Sleepy is a big hockey fan and is constantly checking scores or even watching games on his phone while he plays.

So am I, but I know when it's my turn when sitting at the poker table .

 

[4SUMERZ]

There is no reason to not be paying attention while you are involved in a hand. The dealer should take control on the situation as soon as the next guy(jumpy) bets or checks out of turn, he then ask jumpy to take back his play, and asks Sleepy to play.
If the dealer misses a few action, then the scenarios above work.

 

[upNdown]

I had a crazy Sleepy incident at my game, the other night.
I was hosting and had the button, so I was dealing this hand. Sleepy, on my left in the SB is normally great for the game. But this night he was on substances and buried in his phone.
There was plenty of stupid action pre, flop, and on the turn, where I gave up and folded. Of course my gutshot came in on the river. Even dumber, the hand was won by either a single pair or maybe even a high card - like I said, lots of dumb action. I was frustrated so I grabbed what I thought were my sloppily mucked cards and slammed them in the middle of the table, to show that I would have won. But the cards were AA.
I yelled what the hell is that, other guys were like, you folded aces, and I said no, those must have been Sleepy’s cards. Sleepy, who’s a good guy and always ready to stick it to me, woke up and complained that I’d mucked his cards before he had a chance to play them. Of course the truth was that he, the shitty dealer and the rest of the table just all assumed he had folded at some point and forgot about him.
It was one of the weirder things I’ve seen at a poker table. It happened because it was late, most of us were messed up, Sleepy was buried in his phone, and I was being a shitty dealer. But maybe Sleepy learned a lesson on that one.