How to handle hit and runs? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter renegadegatorman
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Sorry. What do you mean by this?
How does the buy in cap work to help you?
Don’t you allow unlimited add-ons?
People that leave the table get blinded off/away.
You can’t come back later and post blinds in favorable position.
Prevents people from constantly taking cigarette breaks.
So you play 3-4 orbits (blinds) before thinking of getting up from the table to light one up? And when you temporarily leave the table, you still are paying the blinds?
TheJestyr
3 of a Kind
So we often play something like 5/10/25/50 or 10/25/50/100 or whatever. Sometimes we do three blinds, sometimes up to five…it’s all fluid based on game dynamic. We usually start 5/10/25 and grow from there.
This way more people have incentive to play in the hand, as well as to not stand up for prolonged periods of time.
I'm going to say some un-favorable things.
1) HNR (hit and run) - Call them out, 'Chuck, listen you may not know this but hit and run is a rude way to treat people'
2) Allow people to take money off the table (aka going south), this will have an impact on hit and run, but it could cause other issues, and I'm not advocating it, I explaining it is a viable way to prevent HNR.
3) Capping the buy in
4) Change the fucking game to an actual skill game, where the chasm between starting hands isn't so disparately gapped.
5) play Pot Limit
Capping a buy in prevents a martingale style of play, it typically rewards players that make good decisions all night rather than a dude that knows how to take advantage of having a huge stack. It also prevents people that have more money than sense for losing 300 on a single buy in that shouldn't be playing match stack, but claims they don't like limit play, even though the play style is limit
someone that hosts a .25/.5 game that plays match stack with no buy in cap (which there are a lot of dudes here playing this) is not a new player friendly game, its a game that is going to run through new players quickly. They may be able to sustain it for a significant amount of time, but its not likely. I don't think a lot of the members understand the dynamics of various structures of games and how it has an impact on their game. I think some members down play the structure and they know very well what the fuck they are doing.
Matched stack games for your home game for 90% of this forum is a bad idea
1) HNR (hit and run) - Call them out, 'Chuck, listen you may not know this but hit and run is a rude way to treat people'
2) Allow people to take money off the table (aka going south), this will have an impact on hit and run, but it could cause other issues, and I'm not advocating it, I explaining it is a viable way to prevent HNR.
3) Capping the buy in
4) Change the fucking game to an actual skill game, where the chasm between starting hands isn't so disparately gapped.
5) play Pot Limit
Capping a buy in prevents a martingale style of play, it typically rewards players that make good decisions all night rather than a dude that knows how to take advantage of having a huge stack. It also prevents people that have more money than sense for losing 300 on a single buy in that shouldn't be playing match stack, but claims they don't like limit play, even though the play style is limit
someone that hosts a .25/.5 game that plays match stack with no buy in cap (which there are a lot of dudes here playing this) is not a new player friendly game, its a game that is going to run through new players quickly. They may be able to sustain it for a significant amount of time, but its not likely. I don't think a lot of the members understand the dynamics of various structures of games and how it has an impact on their game. I think some members down play the structure and they know very well what the fuck they are doing.
Matched stack games for your home game for 90% of this forum is a bad idea
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I’m i
This must be one hell of a game. I wish I could rail it.Yeah, we have a pretty strict four hour/five buy-in minimum rule…our game is bigger and we really discourage shot takers (guys who show up with only one or two buy ins). Most of our players (myself included) feel that if we’re going to risk a large amount, everyone in the game should be willing to risk a large amount as well. I realize this philosophy is not for everyone.
The rules basically are:
When you walk through the door, you have to have a minimum of five buy-ins on you, and you need to be prepared to put it in play. You also need to be prepared to play at least four hours. (If you’ve been there over four hours, you can leave when you want, but you’re still encouraged to give a 30-60 minute warning)…if you’ve been there less than four hours but have lost at least five buy-ins, you can leave whenever as well.
If you’re up (or at least down scraps) and trying to leave in under four hours, you won’t get invited back for a long while (unless it’s an emergency or something)…
We also play three or four blinds usually, and even if you’re away from the table, you’re posted the entire time.
All of this is to encourage action and to encourage people staying seated at the table. Most of the players love the game and the action. We haven’t had a hit and run issue in years. We also vet the players pretty well and are quick to not invite back those who don’t make the game better. We have a decent player pool, so we aren’t afraid to not invite someone for a while.
Lemme know if I can help further at all!! I’ve also successfully ran games as small as $5 buy-ins over the years and am happy to give any insight I can!
ngmcs8203
Flush
Yes, people can buy-in for as many times as they want. Most will only lose 2-3 buy-ins before going home. At most, a single table 50NL, 100BB cash game in my house will have $500-600 in play. I've heard of capped 50NL games with over $1500 on the table and uncapped match the stack 50NL games with close to $10k on the table. It really is dependent on the group. I think if I ran it uncapped I'd personally buy-in for 200BB so that I could play more splashy, but it would definitely change the dynamic of the table.
What game(s) are you playing with these structures..?
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This is how cash games at all stakes should be run IMO, otherwise go play tourneys.Yeah, we have a pretty strict four hour/five buy-in minimum rule…our game is bigger and we really discourage shot takers (guys who show up with only one or two buy ins). Most of our players (myself included) feel that if we’re going to risk a large amount, everyone in the game should be willing to risk a large amount as well. I realize this philosophy is not for everyone.
The rules basically are:
When you walk through the door, you have to have a minimum of five buy-ins on you, and you need to be prepared to put it in play. You also need to be prepared to play at least four hours. (If you’ve been there over four hours, you can leave when you want, but you’re still encouraged to give a 30-60 minute warning)…if you’ve been there less than four hours but have lost at least five buy-ins, you can leave whenever as well.
If you’re up (or at least down scraps) and trying to leave in under four hours, you won’t get invited back for a long while (unless it’s an emergency or something)…
We also play three or four blinds usually, and even if you’re away from the table, you’re posted the entire time.
All of this is to encourage action and to encourage people staying seated at the table. Most of the players love the game and the action. We haven’t had a hit and run issue in years. We also vet the players pretty well and are quick to not invite back those who don’t make the game better. We have a decent player pool, so we aren’t afraid to not invite someone for a while.
Lemme know if I can help further at all!! I’ve also successfully ran games as small as $5 buy-ins over the years and am happy to give any insight I can!
How do you go about doing this? Just chatting people up in poker room?
I've had a couple of hit and run type players over the years for my cash games. The only active enforcement I employ is that players who do that enough are much less likely to be invited back.
Is this NLHE or PLO? If the latter, sounds like fun!
grandmeme
3 of a Kind
I actually don't mind if the "action player" leaves early with a big stack, he's going to give it back next week anyway.
What I will get a bit iffed about is when players lock their stack up. Nits will never be invited back, ESPECIALLY those who tighten up after a double early in the session. I've even had to indirectly ask a guy to leave early so I could make space for another player (he played 2 hands in 3 hours after he tripled up in a massive cooler, yes I was counting). Kills the vibe of the table when you make it so obvious!
Action players want a chance to win their money back. They won't come back or give action if your nit friend goes on lockdown. At least put on the straddle if you're gonna tighten up!
What I will get a bit iffed about is when players lock their stack up. Nits will never be invited back, ESPECIALLY those who tighten up after a double early in the session. I've even had to indirectly ask a guy to leave early so I could make space for another player (he played 2 hands in 3 hours after he tripled up in a massive cooler, yes I was counting). Kills the vibe of the table when you make it so obvious!
Action players want a chance to win their money back. They won't come back or give action if your nit friend goes on lockdown. At least put on the straddle if you're gonna tighten up!
Samuel
Straight
I would suggest making sure all the players know what a HNR is (and that it's not Cool). What about implementing a house rule that if you win a "big" pot (over $X amount), you have to stay at least Y amount of time (or Z number of orbits) afterwards - even if you had already notified everyone of your quitting time at the beginning of the session (if you can't stay longer, then don't go in). Otherwise, you have to pay every player a certain amount to buy yourself out?
(fwiw, none of the regular hosts for our groups have a rule like that, fortunately ::knocking on my head:: we have never had a problem with HNRs - just throwing out something to possibly consider...) (ETA - if/when I happen to win a good sized pot or two before I have to leave, I will typically stay a couple of orbits more, as a personal rule)
(fwiw, none of the regular hosts for our groups have a rule like that, fortunately ::knocking on my head:: we have never had a problem with HNRs - just throwing out something to possibly consider...) (ETA - if/when I happen to win a good sized pot or two before I have to leave, I will typically stay a couple of orbits more, as a personal rule)
TheJestyr
3 of a Kind
We have almost exclusively played PLO for the past decade or so.
It’s a blast!! We started with three blind NLHE like two decades ago, then rxr, and finally straight PLO. It’s really incredible and such a great game. 8 max, often times gets down to 4 handed deep stacked like 30 hours in, everyone has skin in every pot…I can’t fathom a better game
What do you mean 30 hours in? There's no way that a 8 handed game is lasting that long unless you have to do a short of coke every time you win a pot.We have almost exclusively played PLO for the past decade or so.
It’s a blast!! We started with three blind NLHE like two decades ago, then rxr, and finally straight PLO. It’s really incredible and such a great game. 8 max, often times gets down to 4 handed deep stacked like 30 hours in, everyone has skin in every pot…I can’t fathom a better game
ngmcs8203
Flush
The idea of forcing someone to stay just because they won a pot AFTER they announced they would be leaving at a certain point sounds awful. Like you are holding them hostage. If a player says they can only stay until 10p and win a pot at 9:45, I expect to see them counting up their chips in the next 10 minutes.
@Windwalker this sounds like your kind of game.We have almost exclusively played PLO for the past decade or so.
It’s a blast!! We started with three blind NLHE like two decades ago, then rxr, and finally straight PLO. It’s really incredible and such a great game. 8 max, often times gets down to 4 handed deep stacked like 30 hours in, everyone has skin in every pot…I can’t fathom a better game
TheJestyr
3 of a Kind
Ha, no, no illegal drugs of any kind. It doesn’t happen every game, but every couple of months the stars align and the right people get stuck and the game just keeps going.
Samuel
Straight
That's just something I personally do - even when I've already told everyone when I plan to call it at the beginning of a session, it's not a rule/SOP for any of our games (although I don't think anybody in my group(s) would care if any of our regular hosts decided to make it a house rule, especially if it was announced during the invites, before people RSVPed). If it doesn't sound reasonable or feasible, no biggie...
Rakrul
Straight
Uhhh... He pretty much described how a tournament is usually played. I hate tourneys because you can't leave whenever you've had enough.
TheJestyr
3 of a Kind
So I’ve been thinking more about this.
I grew up playing poker (spread-limit, though didn’t know that’s what it was called at the time) with family and friends as a kid. There was no such thing has hitting and running. It wasn’t until I was playing NL in casinos in my twenties that I heard the HnR term used and experienced first hand what it can do to a game. When there’s a big waitlist, it’s not a huge deal. But when there’s a small player pool for the night, it’s a double whammy because not only is a bunch of money being taken off the table, but a player is lost as well.
I know I have written about some rules put in place for games I play in, but ultimately it comes down to the culture of the game and expectations. Kinda like making noise in someone’s backswing in golf. There’s no written rule but it’s understood when you’re around the game enough.
Until players truly embrace this, limit, spread limit, and PL/NL with a per-pot cap are all ways to curb HnR. When someone can’t win just one massive pot, it takes the “hit” out of the equation.
The guys I play with have been playing together for 15-20+ years, so it’s easy for me to talk about “the culture of the game” but if I was starting fresh again today and didn’t want to go with a time or buy-in minimum, then I’d play a capped buy-in spread-limit game personally. Especially early in the night. Maybe after four hours the game becomes PL with a per-pot cap.
I grew up playing poker (spread-limit, though didn’t know that’s what it was called at the time) with family and friends as a kid. There was no such thing has hitting and running. It wasn’t until I was playing NL in casinos in my twenties that I heard the HnR term used and experienced first hand what it can do to a game. When there’s a big waitlist, it’s not a huge deal. But when there’s a small player pool for the night, it’s a double whammy because not only is a bunch of money being taken off the table, but a player is lost as well.
I know I have written about some rules put in place for games I play in, but ultimately it comes down to the culture of the game and expectations. Kinda like making noise in someone’s backswing in golf. There’s no written rule but it’s understood when you’re around the game enough.
Until players truly embrace this, limit, spread limit, and PL/NL with a per-pot cap are all ways to curb HnR. When someone can’t win just one massive pot, it takes the “hit” out of the equation.
The guys I play with have been playing together for 15-20+ years, so it’s easy for me to talk about “the culture of the game” but if I was starting fresh again today and didn’t want to go with a time or buy-in minimum, then I’d play a capped buy-in spread-limit game personally. Especially early in the night. Maybe after four hours the game becomes PL with a per-pot cap.
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Im mainly making reference to people trying to nit it up and trying to get a double up and lock up.
Id prefer to play smaller stakes and have with everyone splashing around and having fun than play against rocks/nits.
At the end of the day we are talking about home games against people you know or someone who knows someone in the game.
People who leave after winning big pots are rarely winning players. I'm happy for them to book a win. It does hurt games sometimes, but good game curation can prevent that.
The only players I ball bust for leaving early are good players who are up a tiny amount. Those guys get an earful. I’ll also rib them for leaving after losing not enough buy ins. I call that a dump and run. Not cool dude. Stay and spew, or maybe get even!
The only players I ball bust for leaving early are good players who are up a tiny amount. Those guys get an earful. I’ll also rib them for leaving after losing not enough buy ins. I call that a dump and run. Not cool dude. Stay and spew, or maybe get even!
So much this ^^
My game really took off once I started bringing in regs I knew from KC's local casino poker rooms. There's obviously a vetting process, but I know from playing with so many of the regs who would be a good fit. Now, it's not uncommon for most of them to text me to see if I'm hosting a game instead of me texting to check on their availability. Another thing I enjoyed about this group is most of us grew close in recent years to the point where we've either traveled together to poker tourneys, whether it's the WSOP, WSOP-C or RunGood events, or even spontaneous group trips to Vegas just to play poker.
One of the players said it best -- I'm paraphrasing -- when he described my game as most home games are among friends who occassionally play poker, but my home game is filled with poker players who eventually became good friends. We all looked around the table and nodded our heads. Such a fitting description.
But there was a flip side to this approach: Some in the original home game group felt left out because of the change of direction.
What stakes do you play that casino/card room regs are happy to play? Also, how do you go about vetting?
Rakrul
Straight
I see your point, I just don't necessarily agree with it.
I've always had 1-2 nits at my game and the funny thing is that EVERYONE knows he's a nit and yet the action players try to outflop them, or even bad beat them. So the nits still plays but only premium hands and it's regardless of their stack.
When the avg. stack is 100BB there's often a shovefest with j6o 57o JTs etc. but you don't really want the game to continue down that the road for the rest of the night and the nits play their part in balancing the game. You really don't want to play a big pot against them, because they wouldn't be there unless they have 2nd nuts or better*. So when the nit limps in EP it completely changes the dynamic of table, which is interesting (and fun IMO).
However, if you're 5-handed and have 3 nits, the fun is gone - agreed.
As for hit'n'run, it doesn't really matter the situation in where a lot of money is taken off the table. If it's 4 AM, the whale said he was leaving at 3 AM and have been losing money the last hour, it still sucks the energy out of the room when that money walks out the room and that's poker.
*-I'm exaggerating, but you get the point.
(I should add that at my game there's a 100BB buy in max no matter what the avg. stack is and I've had 2500+BB at the table at times.)
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