Dramaha Dealer Error - What would you do? (1 Viewer)

[trigs]

I hosted a dealer's choice game last night and had an issue arise that I thought I'd ask the community about. Technically, it was in a Dra2maha game.

It was two or three players on the flop and betting had been completed. The dealer then accidentally burned and flipped over the turn card before the players had a chance to draw cards. There was a little disagreement about preserving the order of the board cards to come versus preserving the order of the draw cards to come, as well as preserving the chances of the flipped over turn card to be dealt in the community cards again. How would you deal with this?

I can explain how I ruled it after hearing from others, but I'm more interested in how others think it should be dealt with, and whether there's a general consensus of how to deal with this error.

Update: Sorry, I should have mentioned that the dealer would deal the burn card and the turn card face down first and then the players would draw cards, so the turn card was always already chosen first before the draw was made.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

We play random is random. In my game I shuffle that back into the stub, have someone cut, and then run the draw and turn.

Edit to respond to your edit: you mean pre-burning and putting the turn face down before drawing? I don't like that, easier to make silly mistakes like this plus it defeats the purpose of the burn card.

 

[Rhodeman77]

If there is a chance of not having enough cards left in the stub for the turn or river then predealing them is a must.

But I also play random is random and shuffle the exposed cars back into the deck.

In circus games we don’t burn because we often need every card.

 

[CraigT78]

"preserving the order of the board & draw" is ridiculous.

Random is random. Shuffle it back in and keep playing.

Oh and stop buring in circus games.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

If there is a chance of not having enough cards left in the stub for the turn or river then predealing them is a must.

But I also play random is random and shuffle the exposed cars back into the deck.

In circus games we don’t burn because we often need every card.

"preserving the order of the board & draw" is ridiculous.

Random is random. Shuffle it back in and keep playing.

Oh and stop buring in circus games.

Good calls, hadn't thought about that. Hmm burning a card is going to be a tough habit to break

 

[CraigT78]

We play random is random. In my game I shuffle that back into the stub, have someone cut, and then run the draw and turn.

Edit to respond to your edit: you mean pre-burning and putting the turn face down before drawing? I don't like that, easier to make silly mistakes like this plus it defeats the purpose of the burn card.

We declare how many draws and then immediately deal the turn, proceed with draw and then action.

 

[Frogzilla]

Shuffle exposed card back in to stub (riffle riffle strip riffle cut) then proceed normally which I guess would be top card dealt as face down turn

preservation of order is kinda silly in flop games but really silly in draw games

 

[TheOffalo]

Update: Sorry, I should have mentioned that the dealer would deal the burn card and the turn card face down first and then the players would draw cards, so the turn card was always already chosen first before the draw was made.

We declare how many draws and then immediately deal the turn, proceed with draw and then action.

Curious about dealing the Turn before the draw. What’s the reason behind that?

Re: Burning in circus games… My regular group doesn’t like burning in anything other than Hold ‘em, so it’s been a process to get them used to burning in Omaha.

Therefore, when we play circus games, unless there won’t be enough cards, we try to burn in those games too, to keep them used to burning. Most of the circus games we play are Omaha-based variants anyway.

Last night, I came up with an idea for a game that would actually utilize burn cards. Gotta flesh it out a bit first.

 

[glynn]

Most rule sets are trending toward "random is random". The "cosmic order" advocates are always welcome at my game if they can take a little ribbing. There's a big overlap between them and the "we're seeing a lot of threes tonight" folks.

 

[FordPickup92]

Curious about dealing the Turn before the draw. What’s the reason behind that?

It preserves the turn and river as "new" cards from the stub, opposed to 1. Shuffling first folds to finish out the board
2. Ensures you have fresh cards off the stub and leaves first folds for remaining draws
(1 and 2 are about the same)
But generally if you don't burn its not an issue. Standard drawmaha (up to 5 cards) generally makes this a challenge. Draw 2 isn't usually an issue.
You can also "burn until you can't" a happy medium for the burn vs no burn folks

 

[trigs]

Usually we will burn unless we can't due to lack of cards at my games.

Truth be told, I hate dramaha and it's the only game that I ban from being called, but I allowed it at this game

With respect to the dealer burning and down placing the turn card first before players draw? I'm not sure if that's normal or not since I normally don't play dramaha. The dealer is a regular player who usually volunteers to deal when he plays, and I assume he's dealt dramaha before at other home games. So, I'm assuming that was the standard that was decided previous to this specific game. I didn't consider questioning it.

 

[CraigT78]

Curious about dealing the Turn before the draw. What’s the reason behind that?

Re: Burning in circus games… My regular group doesn’t like burning in anything other than Hold ‘em, so it’s been a process to get them used to burning in Omaha.

Therefore, when we play circus games, unless there won’t be enough cards, we try to burn in those games too, to keep them used to burning. Most of the circus games we play are Omaha-based variants anyway.

Last night, I came up with an idea for a game that would actually utilize burn cards. Gotta flesh it out a bit first.

Don't know why, but that's how my dealer does it, and I love it.

 

[TheOffalo]

It preserves the turn and river as "new" cards from the stub, opposed to 1. Shuffling first folds to finish out the board
2. Ensures you have fresh cards off the stub and leaves first folds for remaining draws
(1 and 2 are about the same)
But generally if you don't burn its not an issue. Standard drawmaha (up to 5 cards) generally makes this a challenge. Draw 2 isn't usually an issue.
You can also "burn until you can't" a happy medium for the burn vs no burn folks

That totally makes sense, to avoid discard cards from showing up on the board.

 

[FordPickup92]

Usually we will burn unless we can't due to lack of cards at my games.

Truth be told, I hate dramaha and it's the only game that I ban from being called, but I allowed it at this game

With respect to the dealer burning and down placing the turn card first before players draw? I'm not sure if that's normal or not since I normally don't play dramaha. The dealer is a regular player who usually volunteers to deal when he plays, and I assume he's dealt dramaha before at other home games. So, I'm assuming that was the standard that was decided previous to this specific game. I didn't consider questioning it.

Yes you always burn before draws, if you are burning. Just be consistent either burn the whole way through (until you can't) or don't burn at all

 

[trigs]

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

I am not suggesting that is what happened here at all, but seems like it could be taken advantage of.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

Why would anyone want the stub to be reshuffled? What would be the advantage?

As to the OP, it's not any different than any other game where a turn or river card is exposed prematurely. The burn card (assuming you're burning) and river card are placed, then the exposed card is reshuffled into the deck.

 

[CraigT78]

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

I am not suggesting that is what happened here at all, but seems like it could be taken advantage of.

That's the beauty of Random.

Reshuffle the stub 100 times, the next card out is random.

I'm not saying I'd be for that - just that it doesn't matter. That next card out is any one of the 14 cards remaining and it isn't until it's exposed that it matters.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

I am not suggesting that is what happened here at all, but seems like it could be taken advantage of.

Only reason this would behoove them is if they were cheating and glimpsed a card or order or something. No other reason that a different random card would help them.

If they're doing it just to be annoying and make people wait? They won't be invited back, but shouldnt be helping.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

I am not suggesting that is what happened here at all, but seems like it could be taken advantage of.

Wanting the stub reshuffled if discards are also possibly being used for board cards could be a thing, I guess. You would have more knowledge of what cards could possibly come up, and generally assume that a lower card would be more likely. Something I never would have thought of without this message and hope no one would want to take advantage but it is something to think about.

Would definitely be an argument for pre dealing the board in this situation which I generally disagree with.

 

[inca911]

Wanting the stub reshuffled if discards are also possibly being used for board cards could be a thing, I guess. You would have more knowledge of what cards could possibly come up, and generally assume that a lower card would be more likely. Something I never would have thought of without this message and hope no one would want to take advantage but it is something to think about.

Would definitely be an argument for pre dealing the board in this situation which I generally disagree with.

This the is primary driver to segregate first folds, as using them provides cards that players in the hand have not seen....

 

[BGinGA]

Only one burn card (or none) is needed if dealing the entire board face-down at one time. Personally, I dislike this concept.

Also, any burn cards (if used) are also unknowns (as are first-folds) and eligble to be used if the deck comes up short on cards.

 

[SeanGecko]

Stab them. The blade is the best teacher........

 

[KHarp1]

What would I do? I'll tell you what I'd do... I'd take a huge swipe across the table knocking as much stuff off as I could, then hop up on the table screaming obscenities only an acient mariner would understand while urinating on the table.

 

[FordPickup92]

 

[KHarp1]

I'm a little on the passive side.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The most consistent method I can apply to RROP/TDA procedures:

Complete the entire draw round first. When finished, burn again and deal what would have been the river card as the turn.* (This preserves 4 of the 5 board cards, which is the most you can do to satisfy the Sacred Order of the Cards people.) If a river card is necessary, shuffle the premature turn back into the stub and deal the river off the top.

Make it clear to everyone in the hand how this will play out, before any of it begins. Ideally explain it all with confidence. The last thing you need is someone griping and trying to convince people it should be done another way. It's a little annoying how sore some folks can get when stuff like this happens.

Spoiler: *

Some will insist that you should burn and deal the river face-down after the draw, to preserve the position it would have fallen in naturally. I can appreciate wanting to do this, but pre-dealing cards face-down is a terrible practice that I will never advocate for.

 

[glynn]

@Jimulacrum that is not the current TDA procedure. They have evolved to "random is random". See RP-5. Prematurely Dealt Cards: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

 

[Jimulacrum]

@Jimulacrum that is not the current TDA procedure. They have evolved to "random is random". See RP-5. Prematurely Dealt Cards: https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

Oh, I stand corrected. They're really shunning the Sacred Order people now.

 

[ArielVer18]

Update: Sorry, I should have mentioned that the dealer would deal the burn card and the turn card face down first and then the players would draw cards, so the turn card was always already chosen first before the draw was made.

This causes problems that shouldn't exist. There's a slim chance the face down card is marked affecting player's draw decision. More importantly, in Dramaha, there's no "cosmic order" of the turn card since no one should know the total number of cards drawn from the stub, so by dealing the turn card face down first, an "order" has been created, which gives old-school players a vector to showcase their "order preservation" argument.

Just to play devil's advocate, for the "random is random" crowd, what's to say that in a self dealt game, a player wouldn't purposefully make a dealer error with the intention of wanting the stub to be reshuffled?

I am not suggesting that is what happened here at all, but seems like it could be taken advantage of.

To minimize premature turn, stick to the procedure of tap table, burn, then turn. These natural pauses give other players opportunities to stop the dealer. Furthermore, during the draw round in any Draw games, tell your players the proper dealer procedure is to push and pull (instead of pitching) a player’s draw cards. For example, if a player wants to draw two, the dealer pulls away the two discarded cards, deal two new cards from the stub face down, then push the new cards to the player. It's not possible to accidentally expose cards with this procedure.

 

[JustinInMN]

Oh and stop buring in circus games.

Good calls, hadn't thought about that. Hmm burning a card is going to be a tough habit to break

Re: Burning in circus games… My regular group doesn’t like burning in anything other than Hold ‘em, so it’s been a process to get them used to burning in Omaha.

I don't understand this, the purpose of burning cards is to protect the stub, and greatly deter the benefit of marking cards. Is the stub less worthy of protection in circus games?

There should be a burn after every betting round. When I deal dramaha, I burn before the draw, but the turn is just the next card off the top after completing the draw (since there has been no betting round after the draw.

If there is a concern about running out of cards, to make sure the turn and river are never reshuffles, I would sooner suggest a rule that the final 3 cards in the stub must always be set aside and the draw completed from the discards. Playing Draw2maha usually avoids this issue anyway.

Most rule sets are trending toward "random is random". The "cosmic order" advocates are always welcome at my game if they can take a little ribbing. There's a big overlap between them and the "we're seeing a lot of threes tonight" folks.

Indeed, the way I look at it is the stub is the stub. A player didn't know the order before any errors, nor was the player entitled to know the order before any errors. As long as the contents of the stub are preserved, it doesn't matter the order in which it's shuffled, the probabilities are the same.