Fraud and the Dibs system (1 Viewer)

[Bluegrass Poker]

Just a thought. We have used the dibs system here on PCF for quite a while. This system has proponents and opponents as everyone knows.

My question is does the dibs system encourage fraudulent behavior by others? Especially those who may be or may have been members here and know our dibs system.

And don’t get me wrong, I am not placing any blame on members who have been defrauded. The dibs system works when both parties are being honest and fair.

But I think some people know that they could post a sale at a good price and someone here will jump on it for FOMO and get taken.

As we’ve seen recently some of our great members have seen a good sale and jumped on it and made payment before anyone has time to notice it may be suspicious. The thief knows they can hit and run before we notice.

It sucks that people take advantage of a small community like ours that share a hobby we all love.

Big shout out to Tommy for all the proactive measures he is taking to help prevent scammers from being here.

Anyway, just a thought on this Christmas Eve morning.

 

[upNdown]

My question is does the dibs system encourage fraudulent behavior by others?

100%
Encourages, enables, rolls out the red carpet. I mean especially for the hijacked account kind of scam we’ve seen lately. We’ve got hundreds of members falling over themselves to be the quickest to send their money to a stranger, and look what’s happened.
Now that 2-step is mandatory, is that particular scam gone? Hopefully. But there’s money moving here. Lots of money. Often more money than brains (don’t take offense; lots of you guys just have LOTS of money.) And people want it. So be vigilant!

 

[Big Money]

Is there a escrow company that can be used? If so, it will cost more money, but be worth it to rid ourselves of the odious scammers.

 

[Rieguy]

My question is does the dibs system encourage fraudulent behavior by others? Especially those who may be or may have been members here and know our dibs system.

It can, but a lot of the scams were also apparently via PM.

Between 2FA now being required, the requesting of specific pictures, the buyer's option to pay via G&S, large visible warnings on PCF, and members' general knowledge of specific red flags in scam sales, @Tommy has put tools in place to protect us. Now members have to help protect themselves as well.

With all of that it's hard to see how changing the Classifieds is going to save buyer from not following the above and/or not doing their own due diligence. That being said, I'm always up for a good old dibs debate thread; they never disappoint.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I don’t think we should “enforce” a 24 hour payment, but I sure as shit won’t pay until I get some serious confirmations in the PMs.

Otherwise system is fine. Let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill. We probably have over 3,000 transactions a year with minor issues. All of these frauds would have been detected if payment wasn’t made in 10 min or less from what I gather.

 

[dp68094]

I completely sympathize with thise folks who were scammed and, given today's world it's no different than anything else, buyer beware! Personally the 2FA is pretty arduous, but given the alternative, I think it's a good level of security and we shouldn't have to take it any futher... DiBs rules!

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

I don’t think we should “enforce” a 24 hour payment, but I sure as shit won’t pay until I get some serious confirmations in the PMs.

Otherwise system is fine. Let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill. We probably have over 3,000 transactions a year with minor issues. All of these frauds would have been detected if payment wasn’t made in 10 min or less from what I gather.

That’s completely my point. The scammer exploited the trusting nature of the dibs system and the super quick payment it often engenders.

99% plus of dibs sales are completely fine.

 

[doublebooyah85]

In addition the Dibs system is good for site traffic (ad revenue) for those who manages the site and deserve it

 

[redwine]

I think the dibs system is natural given our market.

On PCF people are kicking down doors to be the first one to dibs lest they miss out on something they are hunting for. Desirable listings are often sold in a matter of minutes, if not seconds.

I just haven't seen that level of buyer fervor in other classifieds markets I've been in. Maybe on /r/mechmarket, but I felt that prices in that market adjusted more quickly to equilibrium.

Not sure what really drives it. Some theories:

• limited supply nature of the most desirable chips. zero new production (well, maybe not zero )
• many people here know each other and there is an underlying pressure not to ram each other on prices, which sometimes works to keep prices at buyer's levels
• one-size-fits-all nature of chips: there is general consensus on which chips are the most desirable, which cant be said for all markets
• maybe chip collectors just are a lot of more passionate about chips than other collectors or have more time on their hands to refresh

 

[BearMetal]

Just because you post dibs doesn't mean that you have to turn around and pay as fast as possible without doing any due diligence.

Sure, you can snipe a sale with a fast dibs, but once you posted that, it's up to the seller now to be patient and honest while you vet them.

Any seller that doesn't respect that will be outted on here publicly. So I say feel free to go ahead and dibs a great sale... But once you posted publicly that you want it then you can take a step back and take your time to verify that the seller is indeed legit.

 

[Big Money]

The dibs system need not be "rushed". Once dibs has been posted, there can be vetting.

I think the acceptance of not using F&F will go farther in deterring scammers as well. As I said earlier, formation of a escrow "office" or company, would get rid of the element.

 

[CrazyEddie]

• many people here know each other and there is an underlying pressure not to ram each other on prices, which sometimes works to keep prices at buyer's levels

I think this is under-appreciated. Chips are being sold for ridiculously low prices as proven by how quickly they sell. Sellers are leaving a lot of money on the table; I'm a buyer, so I'm benefiting from this, but I don't think the phenomenon should pass by unremarked.

There's some degree of social pressure being applied to keep prices down artificially. The people who are most affected by this are new sellers, who have the least amount of experience and knowledge to be able to price their chips well. The people who most benefit are the experienced buyers, who - if they're lucky enough and fast enough to be the first to post on a sale - end up getting great bargains.

A contributing factor is that chip prices have been rising so quickly that barely anyone appreciates what their real market value is; even an experienced chipper might get caught flat-footed by just how quickly their chips will sell at what they thought was a high price - because it was a high price six months ago, but now it's a steal. Demand is outstripping supply and is doing so at an ever-increasing rate.

Anyway, this is sort of a sidebar to the OP's question.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Wait a second? Chip prices are affordable and low?

 

[CrazyEddie]

Wait a second? Chip prices are affordable and low?

They're not remotely affordable. But as crazy as prices are right now, they ought to be even higher.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Just because you post dibs doesn't mean that you have to turn around and pay as fast as possible without doing any due diligence.

Sure, you can snipe a sale with a fast dibs, but once you posted that, it's up to the seller now to be patient and honest while you vet them.

Any seller that doesn't respect that will be outted on here publicly. So I say feel free to go ahead and dibs a great sale... But once you posted publicly that you want it then you can take a step back and take your time to verify that the seller is indeed legit.

100%.

It is not a problem of dibs, it is a problem of immediate payment.

 

[Tommy]

I completely sympathize with thise folks who were scammed and, given today's world it's no different than anything else, buyer beware! Personally the 2FA is pretty arduous, but given the alternative, I think it's a good level of security and we shouldn't have to take it any futher... DiBs rules!

Made sure there are no shady IPs on your account after that post.

 

[Tommy]

It is not a problem of dibs, it is a problem of immediate payment.

Payment within 24 hrs seems reasonable to me unless other arrangements are made. And if the seller doesn't post that the item is available due to whatever and is offering you the same chips in PMs, I'd be cautious.

 

[FestiveKnight]

After 2FA and good passwords to secure accounts in the first place, and then being vigilant about red flags, one of the best suggestions imo was this:

I was thinking of a five digit random number that you tell them. Then they have to stack the chips you are buying in corresponding stack sizes.

It would be an easy solution to avoid sending money to somebody who doesn't have chips.

Confirms the seller has the chips physically. Doesn’t stop the problem where they then chose not to send them after payment is made but at least goes a long way to confirming they have the chips

 

[Eloe2000]

I don’t even understand what the proposed tentative link between dibs and fraud could be let alone agree with the connection.

Fraud is occurring because a former insider knows that people send unsecured funds to each other partially based on the credibility they place on a members track record and partially simply on their membership in this community.

More so there had been recent attempts by a hijacked account to sell via PM. That seems the more likely place for Poopin to be successful with his attempts. At least with the public classifieds the attempts are more likely to get sniffed out.

Once you come to an agreement to buy regardless of the means is where some level of scrutiny and authentication and possible payment protection should take place.

 

[upNdown]

I don’t even understand what the proposed tentative link between dibs and fraud could be let alone agree with the connection.

Fraud is occurring because a former insider knows that people send unsecured funds to each other partially based on the credibility they place on a members track record and partially simply on their membership in this community.

More so there had been recent attempts by a Gina led account to sell via PM. That seems the more likely place for Poopin to be successful with his attempts. At least with the public classifieds the attempts are more likely to get sniffed out.

Once you come to an agreement to buy regardless of the means is where some level of scrutiny and authentication and possible payment protection should take place.

You guys really think all the recent password/hijack/frauds are poppin? There are lots of criminals in this world, and we’ve been ripe for picking.

 

[Eloe2000]

You guys really think all the recent password/hijack/frauds are poppin? There are lots of criminals in this world, and we’ve been ripe for picking.

Tommy posted IPs from the Netherlands both for this situation as well as other recent situations. I was under the impression that was the suspicion.

Regardless of whether it’s him or not I certainly believe it is people with some understanding of the community. People who got into chipping that have happen to be thieves. I don’t believe they are random internet thieves that happened upon PCF.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

You guys really think all the recent password/hijack/frauds are poppin? There are lots of criminals in this world, and we’ve been ripe for picking.

All from Amsterdam ? I mean it’s possible but wouldn’t that be a coincidence

 

[ThePrototype]

I think the dibs system although attracting scammers is still good. I jus think there should be a longher period before people make payments. This gives time for you to ask for a picture of the seller in a sexy pose with the chips to really prove they own said chips haha

 

[WedgeRock]

I was thinking of a five digit random number that you tell them. Then they have to stack the chips you are buying in corresponding stack sizes.

It would be an easy solution to avoid sending money to somebody who doesn't have chips.

Confirms the seller has the chips physically. Doesn’t stop the problem where they then chose not to send them after payment is made but at least goes a long way to confirming they have the chips

Confirms they are not scammers, stealing pics.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Fraud is occurring because a former insider knows that people send unsecured funds to each other partially based on the credibility they place on a members track record and partially simply on their membership in this community.

Not necessarily an insider. Most of the forum, including the classifieds, are open for viewing to the entire Internet as a guest. All you would have to do is monitor or scrape the classifieds and the discussions on payment methods for a period of time to pick up the trends, especially the preferences for payments. If a scammer can identify a trend that they can exploit and can also subsequently hijack an existing account, they know enough to pull off a scam.

Personally, I think making the classifieds section hidden from public view could help. You could still pick up on trends from discussions about the classifieds from other forums, though, but not being able to see the transactions could make the forum less of a target overall.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I gotta say, I don't even understand what the issue is.....

 

[Eloe2000]

Not necessarily an insider. Most of the forum, including the classifieds, are open for viewing to the entire Internet as a guest. All you would have to do is monitor or scrape the classifieds and the discussions on payment methods for a period of time to pick up the trends, especially the preferences for payments. If a scammer can identify a trend that they can exploit and can also subsequently hijack an existing account, they know enough to pull off a scam.

Personally, I think making the classifieds section hidden from public view could help. You could still pick up on trends from discussions about the classifieds from other forums, though, but not being able to see the transactions could make the forum less of a target overall.

While possible, that actually would take a lot of time and I still don’t believe it is that complicated. Most crimes are that of opportunity. And this is a very small community with relatively limited opportunity. I highly doubt Nigerian princes are seeking out small forums like this to scam. It is much much more plausible that all of this is from one or more ex or current members. And prior to these recent incidences all of what I had seen happened was an active member with a track record just went AWOL for whatever personal reasons. And actually this is even what happened with Poppin sort of. He was an active participating member who then went corrupt. And it seems plausible has now gone full repeat malicious crook.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

While possible, that actually would take a lot of time and I still don’t believe it is that complicated. Most crimes are that of opportunity. And this is a very small community with relatively limited opportunity. I highly doubt Nigerian princes are seeking out small forums like this to scam. It is much much more plausible that all of this is from one or more ex or current members. And prior to these recent incidences all of what I had seen happened was an active member with a track record just went AWOL for whatever personal reasons. And actually this is even what happened with Poppin sort of. He was an active participating member who then went corrupt. And it seems plausible has now gone full repeat malicious crook.

That makes sense. My day job is as an IT troubleshooter for other developers, and by the time an issue hits my desk, the probable causes have normally been ruled out. I get the really weird and not-so-wonderful errors. As such, I tend to focus on the possible, not the probable.

 

[MrCatPants]

So I have seen a lot of people talking about paypal goods and services being a protection...but if that becomes the standard, aren't we just opening sellers up for more problems? If you look at paypals list of what is covered and what is not, a number of ways here a buyer could claim to need relief.

Any regular PayPal sellers on here familiar enough with their disputes process to weigh in?

 

[Big Money]

So I have seen a lot of people talking about paypal goods and services being a protection...but if that becomes the standard, aren't we just opening sellers up for more problems? If you look at paypals list of what is covered and what is not, a number of ways here a buyer could claim to need relief.

Any regular PayPal sellers on here familiar enough with their disputes process to weigh in?

View attachment 834954

Why would this open up sellers to more problems? The same problems exist, the buyer just has recourse now.

- If you want to avoid issues, than document everything
- There is no avoiding problems if one side is looking to exploit the other
- Hoping nobody is going to scam you is no real protection against getting scammed
- buying and selling things over the internet is inherently risky
- Having a reputable company act as an escrow service, in this case PP acts as the payment escrow, mitigates that risk but does not eliminate it

Avoiding PP G&S just because you might owe taxes on the profit you make selling chips is ridiculous in my opinion. I know most people don't like paying taxes, but they are taxes you and I might have always owed, but haven't paid previously.