T-Mold and Sm/Lg (Greek) Key Molds still around? (2 Viewers)

Talrem

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Greetings, Programs!

I was astounded when I saw the group buys organized here. After years of searching various sites I’ve seen the multitude of chip designs out there. As with all works of art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Being an artist/art teacher, I’ve tried to appreciate them for what they are, but I’ve developed a specific preference for chip molds and inlay designs and have come to like the T-molds and Greek Key molds.


This question goes out to all the knowledgeable enthusiasts here:
Are any poker chip companies currently printing on these molds, and are they open to group buys/custom prints?

Thanks for the info in advance!
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The T-mold was used by BCC, and you can still find quite a few nice sets that were made on it for relatively cheap nowadays, but BCC is currently owned by GPI, meaning you can’t get chips from them anymore, and the mold itself is lost (I think, @Potsie1 might know better).

The Small Key and Large Key molds were used by Burt Co and ASM, but went out of commission a while ago. The worn/unusable molds lie with the Museum of Gaming History now, I believe.

Are any poker chip companies currently printing on these molds, and are they open to group buys/custom prints?
And just a small thing, they’d be making chips on the mold. Printing is exclusively for ceramic chips which have designs printed on them. Clay chips are physically made up of different colors of clay with spots physically inserted, and inlays are pressed into them while they are being molded.
 
Nope, but have you seen BCC Samurai (T Mold)? Beautiful pic belongs to @Potsie1

View attachment 720815
Yeah! I was going to purchase a set years ago when the first came out - like the mold and the graphics. Now I can’t find a set.
I was thinking about this as my next buy, or a Pharaohs set, or a custom set.
If I opt for a custom set, I’d want a T-mold or Key mold IF a company uses it.
 
The T-mold was used by BCC, and you can still find quite a few nice sets that were made on it for relatively cheap nowadays, but BCC is currently owned by GPI, meaning you can’t get chips from them anymore, and the mold itself is lost (I think, @Potsie1 might know better).

The Small Key and Large Key molds were used by Burt Co and ASM, but went out of commission a while ago. The worn/unusable molds lie with the Museum of Gaming History now, I believe.


And just a small thing, they’d be making chips on the mold. Printing is exclusively for ceramic chips which have designs printed on them. Clay chips are physically made up of different colors of clay with spots physically inserted, and inlays are pressed into them while they are being molded.
Thanks for the info and correction! I’m still learning the lingo.
So if one mold is not for public production, and the other is in a museum, I guess my only option is to break into one or both places to “liberate” the molds and make an amazing set for myself!
I wonder if GPI would allow group orders from this group…?
 
The only way you'll be able to somewhat replicate these molds is to print the design on a ceramic chip. You can get clever and add shadows to give the illusion of depth.
I wouldn’t want a cheap imitation. For anyone who’s seen and handled the real thing, imitations just won’t do.
Do you think there’s a way to make a mold and have the company use it to make a set?
I‘d love to find out!
 
Some of my favorite molds are Roman, Flowers, Web, Small T, Small Greek Key, Large Greek Key, and Medium Greek Key. I've got a thing for geometry and patterns, I guess.

How's that working out for me?
  • Roman - This mold is owned by CPC, but all the mold cups have completely worn out and the master die has been lost. No more of these chips will ever be made.
  • Flowers - This mold is in CPC's custody, but it is owned by George and Co, and the owners have refused to grant permission to use it.
  • Web - This mold is owned by @Potsie1 having received it via Michael Patton's estate, but it is not compatible with CPC's equipment. It was last used to manufacture chips by BCC for Michael Patton's Holdempokerchips, but BCC is now part of GPI, and GPI will not make poker chips for non-casino customers.
  • Small T - Same story as Web, except that to make things even worse GPI has custody of the molds.
  • Medium Greek Key - Same story as Web, except that the mold is owned by Joshua Dalton, and again GPI has custody of the molds (probably).
  • Small and Large Greek Key - Probably CPC has these molds, since ownership passed from B.C. Wills to Burt Co to ASM and so presumably to CPC, but for whatever reason CPC hasn't chosen to or been able to offer these molds to the public. [Edit: Ah, @GianThaMan covered it: "The worn/unusable molds lie with the Museum of Gaming History now, I believe."]
So, welcome to the party. There simply aren't going to be any new chips made using the molds you like. You're left with looking for older sets and coughing up hefty prices to pry them loose from the hands they're in today.

This Is The Way.
 
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That chevron pattern is nice too. As @CrazyEddie said, it’s probably a thing for patterns and geometry. I also like radial symmetry too, and I was also eyeballing the Paulson Starburst chips for a while.
There are too many sets that I like but can’t decide on because if one thing turns me off, I know I’ll regret buying the set. I’m always going to see it (whatever isn‘t perfect to me) and shake my head.
 
Get samples. How chips look in pictures is a very small component to the process of determing what chips you actually like in-hand.
 
Get samples. How chips look in pictures is a very small component to the process of determing what chips you actually like in-hand.
Tru dat. As one example...

I've got a set of hotstamped monogram web molds made by Burt Co probably a very long time ago, and a set of fantasy casino web molds made by Paulson somewhat more recently (the web molds have changed hands a lot). The Burt Cos are much, much lighter and "clinky" than the Paulsons, even though they're made with the same mold. And the Paulson web molds are in turn much, much lighter than Paulson THCs. There's a considerable difference in the way these three chips feel, even though all of them are 39mm compression-molded clay chips.

Lucky for me, even though they're all different, I like them all. :)

But you might not.

Get samples.
 
Tru dat. As one example...

I've got a set of hotstamped monogram web molds made by Burt Co probably a very long time ago, and a set of fantasy casino web molds made by Paulson somewhat more recently (the web molds have changed hands a lot). The Burt Cos are much, much lighter and "clinky" than the Paulsons, even though they're made with the same mold. And the Paulson web molds are in turn much, much lighter than Paulson THCs. There's a considerable difference in the way these three chips feel, even though all of them are 39mm compression-molded clay chips.

Lucky for me, even though they're all different, I like them all. :)

But you might not.

Get samples.
Gonna have to scout for sample sets. I’ve a few t-mold blanks (samples) and even a different key mold on chips that feel more like plastic than clay.

I’d love to get samples of a mold with different pressed materials to feel the weight and texture, as well as hear their sound.
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Cool samples, bro. :) The Samurais are well-regarded, and it's nice to have a T-Mold color set. Great to pick up and shuffle. :)

Gonna have to scout for sample sets. I’ve a few t-mold blanks (samples) and even a different key mold on chips that feel more like plastic than clay.

The key molds you have there are definitely plastic, not clay. There's some careful unpacking to be done regarding greek keys:
  • Large Greek Keys were clay chips made by Burt Co and sold by BC Wills.
  • Small Greek Keys were also clay chips made by Burt Co and sold by BC Wills.
  • Medium Greek Keys were made by multiple vendors from multiple materials and in multiple slightly different styles:
    • BCC made clay chips (compression-molded) using a mold owned by Joshua Dalton
    • PGI (Palm Gaming) made china clays (injection-molded) using a medium greek key pattern which was different from the BCC clays. There were a couple of different spot patterns made: 4d14 (four positions, each position with two 1/4" spots) and 8v (eight positions, each position a v-shaped spot). With injection molding, different spot patterns require different molds, although different colors don't.
    • Progen-80 chips were china clays made using a medium greek key pattern which was different from the BCC or PGI chips, using materials that were different from and inferior to the PGI chips. They used the same 4d14 spot pattern and color selection that the PGI 4d14 chips used (which, in turn, are modeled after a well-known spot and color set used by Paulson for some of their fantasy chips).
The samples you have are yet a fourth line of medium greek keys. They have the same key pattern as the Progen-80s, although it's a different mold because the line weights are slightly different. They use a 4d14 spot pattern, but the colors are different from the Progen-80 / PGI / Paulson fantasy colors. I've seen these before but for the life of me I can't find any posts about them again. I'm not certain whether they're china clays or slugged plastics, nor who makes them. The difference would be their weight; china clays will be 8-10g and slugged plastics will be 11-15g.

I’d love to get samples of a mold with different pressed materials to feel the weight and texture, as well as hear their sound.

Not really possible, with few exceptions. A mold is designed to work with a particular molding process and a particular type of material. Injection molds such as used for china clays are very different from compression molds used for clays. Even compression molds aren't compatible across different manufacturers, as most of the manufacturers used different processes, equipment, and materials (even though they are all compression molding).

Exceptions:

Web molds were used by Burt Co, then Paulson, then BCC. Paulson and BCC were mostly compatible since BCC was started by ex-Paulson people, but Paulson was very different from Burt Co. We still don't have a good understanding of how the Burt Co molds were adapted to the Paulson process.

Small Crowns and Large Crowns molds were used by TRK, then later used by CPC. David Spragg had to do extensive modifications to the molds to adapt them from the TRK process to the CPC process. He hasn't discussed the details of what those modifications were.

The Unicorn molds were mainly used for injection molding, but at some point they were modified to work with compression molding. As a consequence, most Unicorns are plastic, but some are clay. We still don't have a good understanding of how the molds were adapted from injection molding to compression molding.

As described above, a Greek Key pattern has been used many different times. No molds were adapted, though. Different manufacturers just made their own new molds using designs that somewhat resembled each other but were clearly different from each other.

Similarly, some other mold designs that were first used for clay chips have been reproduced in new molds used for injection molded plastic chips. The classic Dunes house mold springs to mind, as well as the Pharaoh's fantasy chips - both were first done in clay, but then later "tribute" chips were made in plastic. There's some others, I think, but I don't recall them all offhand.

Other than that, though, you won't find two chips made from different materials coming from the same mold.
 
Other than that, though, you won't find two chips made from different materials coming from the same mold.

Well, I forgot to mention that some manufacturers changed their materials formulas somewhat over time. In particular, Paulson used to include lead in their formulas, but at some point they started phasing it out. So as a consequence you now have leaded THCs and non-leaded THCs. The former are distinctly heavier, and usually more desired.

There's a similar story there about leaded and non-leaded TRKs.
 
Cool samples, bro. :) The Samurais are well-regarded, and it's nice to have a T-Mold color set. Great to pick up and shuffle. :)



The key molds you have there are definitely plastic, not clay. There's some careful unpacking to be done regarding greek keys:
  • Large Greek Keys were clay chips made by Burt Co and sold by BC Wills.
  • Small Greek Keys were also clay chips made by Burt Co and sold by BC Wills.
  • Medium Greek Keys were made by multiple vendors from multiple materials and in multiple slightly different styles:
    • BCC made clay chips (compression-molded) using a mold owned by Joshua Dalton
    • PGI (Palm Gaming) made china clays (injection-molded) using a medium greek key pattern which was different from the BCC clays. There were a couple of different spot patterns made: 4d14 (four positions, each position with two 1/4" spots) and 8v (eight positions, each position a v-shaped spot). With injection molding, different spot patterns require different molds, although different colors don't.
    • Progen-80 chips were china clays made using a medium greek key pattern which was different from the BCC or PGI chips, using materials that were different from and inferior to the PGI chips. They used the same 4d14 spot pattern and color selection that the PGI 4d14 chips used (which, in turn, are modeled after a well-known spot and color set used by Paulson for some of their fantasy chips).
The samples you have are yet a fourth line of medium greek keys. They have the same key pattern as the Progen-80s, although it's a different mold because the line weights are slightly different. They use a 4d14 spot pattern, but the colors are different from the Progen-80 / PGI / Paulson fantasy colors. I've seen these before but for the life of me I can't find any posts about them again. I'm not certain whether they're china clays or slugged plastics, nor who makes them. The difference would be their weight; china clays will be 8-10g and slugged plastics will be 11-15g.



Not really possible, with few exceptions. A mold is designed to work with a particular molding process and a particular type of material. Injection molds such as used for china clays are very different from compression molds used for clays. Even compression molds aren't compatible across different manufacturers, as most of the manufacturers used different processes, equipment, and materials (even though they are all compression molding).

Exceptions:

Web molds were used by Burt Co, then Paulson, then BCC. Paulson and BCC were mostly compatible since BCC was started by ex-Paulson people, but Paulson was very different from Burt Co. We still don't have a good understanding of how the Burt Co molds were adapted to the Paulson process.

Small Crowns and Large Crowns molds were used by TRK, then later used by CPC. David Spragg had to do extensive modifications to the molds to adapt them from the TRK process to the CPC process. He hasn't discussed the details of what those modifications were.

The Unicorn molds were mainly used for injection molding, but at some point they were modified to work with compression molding. As a consequence, most Unicorns are plastic, but some are clay. We still don't have a good understanding of how the molds were adapted from injection molding to compression molding.

As described above, a Greek Key pattern has been used many different times. No molds were adapted, though. Different manufacturers just made their own new molds using designs that somewhat resembled each other but were clearly different from each other.

Similarly, some other mold designs that were first used for clay chips have been reproduced in new molds used for injection molded plastic chips. The classic Dunes house mold springs to mind, as well as the Pharaoh's fantasy chips - both were first done in clay, but then later "tribute" chips were made in plastic. There's some others, I think, but I don't recall them all offhand.

Other than that, though, you won't find two chips made from different materials coming from the same mold.
It’s amazing how much you know!
I guess since I don’t know about chip production, the ideas I have don‘t sound feasible/make sense.
If I were to make a new mold, I would make different versions for the injection and compression processes to offer a high-end and low-end version of a particular series. The high-end would be made of clay, then composite(s), then the low-end plastic version.
Maybe because I’m thinking about home consumers as well as casinos in the production process.
It‘s probably not worth the time/effort to make a set/mold with different materials and price them differently.
 
Here's a Small Key Set Hot Stamped, near Mint condition.

I have had these for a long time now, and almost forgot about them.
 

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Currently
$1x 50
$5x 149
$25x 62
$100x 25

I’d like to add 80-100 chips as a frac, and increase the $1s to 120-60 either by adding more or replacing with a different chip.
 
Currently
$1x 50
$5x 149
$25x 62
$100x 25

I’d like to add 80-100 chips as a frac, and increase the $1s to 120-60 either by adding more or replacing with a different chip.
A set like this, I’d want to keep the same chip. If the mold is the same, the inlay doesn’t matter if it’ll be replaced anyway.
How much for the total set?
 
Well, I forgot to mention that some manufacturers changed their materials formulas somewhat over time. In particular, Paulson used to include lead in their formulas, but at some point they started phasing it out. So as a consequence you now have leaded THCs and non-leaded THCs. The former are distinctly heavier, and usually more desired.

There's a similar story there about leaded and non-leaded TRKs.
Do you know the firing temperatures for the different materials?
Is there a way to find out? I teach ceramics, but these materials are unknown to me (besides clay).
 
Do you know the firing temperatures for the different materials?
Is there a way to find out? I teach ceramics, but these materials are unknown to me (besides clay).
None of these chips are at all similar to clay. They're all plastic, or some unknown material which behaves like plastic, and that includes chips which we call "clay" and "ceramic". Clay chips do include some clay minerals in their formulas, but the resulting material does not behave like clay, i.e. it can't be fired. Ceramic chips are entirely plastic and have nothing whatsoever to do with actual ceramics, although the plastic that they use produces a chip which kind-of sort-of feels like ceramic.

The general behavior of the material used in poker chips is that it softens and melts when heated, then hardens again when cooled - i.e. it's thermoplastic. Some chips are made of thermosetting material which cures when heated to higher temperatures and under great pressure; once cured, they won't later melt if heated again.

There's a lot of information out there about injection molding, and all of it applies to any sort of poker chip except clays. Clays are compression molded, and the specifics of each different manufacturer's process - such as temperatures and pressures used, not to mention the specific materials used to make their chips - are generally speaking confidential and have not been published.
 

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