T-Mold and Sm/Lg (Greek) Key Molds still around? (1 Viewer)

[CrazyEddie]

The samples you have are yet a fourth line of medium greek keys. They have the same key pattern as the Progen-80s, although it's a different mold because the line weights are slightly different. They use a 4d14 spot pattern, but the colors are different from the Progen-80 / PGI / Paulson fantasy colors. I've seen these before but for the life of me I can't find any posts about them again. I'm not certain whether they're china clays or slugged plastics, nor who makes them. The difference would be their weight; china clays will be 8-10g and slugged plastics will be 11-15g.

Found 'em!

https://chipsandgames.com/products/custom-full-color-poker-chips-tri-color-design

They're sold by Chips and Games, which has in the past imported and sold some nice low-end plastics and china clays, specifically the Spirit Mold china clays and the Sixteen-Stripe plastics (you can search PCF to learn more about those, although they're both now completely out of stock and therefore hard to purchase).

These weigh 11.5 grams, which means they're metal-slugged.

 

[GianThaMan]

None of these chips are at all similar to clay. They're all plastic, or some unknown material which behaves like plastic, and that includes chips which we call "clay" and "ceramic". Clay chips do include some clay minerals in their formulas, but the resulting material does not behave like clay, i.e. it can't be fired.

Not true for Burt/ASM/CPC. They use a majority clay formula, which might be why their chips have to be heated so much during pressing, as clay usually doesn't hold its form as well as plastic before heating. It may also be why CPCs can get discolored when left in water or especially in an ultrasonic, while Paulsons and the like tend to stay in pretty much the same condition.

 

[dmoney]

A set like this, I’d want to keep the same chip. If the mold is the same, the inlay doesn’t matter if it’ll be replaced anyway.
How much for the total set?

It seems that fair value for decent large greek key chips is anywhere from $1 to maybe $4 per chip? I've seen a rack of Soper's for $600 though, so there are clearly exceptions, and I'm relatively ill-informed overall on LGK/Super Gem chips.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Not true for Burt/ASM/CPC. They use a majority clay formula, which might be why their chips have to be heated so much during pressing, as clay usually doesn't hold its form as well as plastic before heating. It may also be why CPCs can get discolored when left in water or especially in an ultrasonic, while Paulsons and the like tend to stay in pretty much the same condition.

David said "there are zero plastics in our chips and over 2/3 clay" and "There is zero plastic in any ASM/CPC chip."

He naturally declined to say what the other 1/3 of the ingredients are. My statement above is that they are "some unknown material which behaves like plastic" and that is backed up by David's own statements elsewhere - the material that CPC chips are made out of softens and melts when heated, becomes firm again when cooled, and cures when heated to higher temperatures and great pressure so that they don't later melt again when heated.

The raw material for CPC chips contains clay, but it doesn't behave like clay. The same is true of Paulsons and TRKs; the difference is that Paulsons and TRKs contain plastic (as David confirmed, not to mention the recipe Jeff turned up in the TRK order cards) whereas CPCs contain something that isn't plastic.

 

[GianThaMan]

David said "there are zero plastics in our chips and over 2/3 clay" and "There is zero plastic in any ASM/CPC chip."

He naturally declined to say what the other 1/3 of the ingredients are. My statement above is that they are "some unknown material which behaves like plastic" and that is backed up by David's own statements elsewhere - the material that CPC chips are made out of softens and melts when heated, becomes firm again when cooled, and cures when heated to higher temperatures and great pressure so that they don't later melt again when heated.

The raw material for CPC chips contains clay, but it doesn't behave like clay. The same is true of Paulsons and TRKs; the difference is that Paulsons and TRKs contain plastic (as David confirmed, not to mention the recipe Jeff turned up in the TRK order cards) whereas CPCs contain something that isn't plastic.

True, I just assumed that the last ~1/3 were dyes, because pure clay would require quite a bit of dye to get into a vibrant color. What were his statements that said the material softens and melts when heated? I haven't seen those anywhere on here.

 

[ekricket]

True, I just assumed that the last ~1/3 were dyes,

Solid dyes typically have to have a “carrier” to distribute them properly. The mixing is probably the most important and easiest step on the process to screw up. You need to get a good homogeneous mixture that will uniformly heat and expand, then cool and minimize shrink. If you just throw your stuff in (different sizes and shapes and densities) and give it a whirl it might not bake good.
You might look at resins instead of plastics?

 

[Talrem]

Found 'em!

https://chipsandgames.com/products/custom-full-color-poker-chips-tri-color-design

They're sold by Chips and Games, which has in the past imported and sold some nice low-end plastics and china clays, specifically the Spirit Mold china clays and the Sixteen-Stripe plastics (you can search PCF to learn more about those, although they're both now completely out of stock and therefore hard to purchase).

These weigh 11.5 grams, which means they're metal-slugged.

Those are the ones I have samples of!
I guess if I really wanted a cheap set I could go with these. I just don’t like the adhesive label inlay. I’d prefer if it were “baked“ into the chip, making it more permanent.
I could possibly get blanks instead… I don’t know.
I do prefer the better quality chip, but may have to settle since I really like the LGK.
Thanks for tracking these down!

 

[Talrem]

David said "there are zero plastics in our chips and over 2/3 clay" and "There is zero plastic in any ASM/CPC chip."

He naturally declined to say what the other 1/3 of the ingredients are. My statement above is that they are "some unknown material which behaves like plastic" and that is backed up by David's own statements elsewhere - the material that CPC chips are made out of softens and melts when heated, becomes firm again when cooled, and cures when heated to higher temperatures and great pressure so that they don't later melt again when heated.

The raw material for CPC chips contains clay, but it doesn't behave like clay. The same is true of Paulsons and TRKs; the difference is that Paulsons and TRKs contain plastic (as David confirmed, not to mention the recipe Jeff turned up in the TRK order cards) whereas CPCs contain something that isn't plastic.

Very interesting!
Maybe the third substance is some polymer akin to PVC. I‘m wondering what the melting point of a “clay” poker chip is. It would be cool to bake in my own inlays if they don’t melt in the kiln!

 

[CrazyEddie]

What were his statements that said the material softens and melts when heated? I haven't seen those anywhere on here.

Blink and you'll miss it! I only caught it myself because I happened to have been digging back through the old CPC General Discussion thread recently. It was part of a post where David was talking about the difficulties of making spots and why there's such a difference in cost between the various spot levels.

Then, to jump to the 6QADS18 you add a whole load of other process differences. The gap between the two spots in a pair is small. If you punched and punched again with these, either the first holes close up or the small prongs break up or deform. Therefore you have to make a 3ADS and repress it to bind the first 6 spots into place before doing the repunching. Not only do you have to be very careful to insert the correct color spots in order both times round but there is an added factor which many probably don't appreciate about working with multiple color spots. For some chemical reason, the different dyes alter the melting temperature of the clay, even though they are only a tiny part of a formula which basically remains the same. The spots have to be warmed up very slightly so they can be pushed into the holes (all done 100% by hand). Just for the purpose of explanation, say that white clay softens slightly at 50 degrees and melts at 80 degrees, but black does not soften until 80 degrees, that means you have to do the two colors separately. That adds a good percentage to the labor. On larger size spots the temperature required is much closer to each other so you can get away with doing it at the same time.
While Ive only explained parts of the process hopefully people can see why there is a such a difference in spot levels.

 

[CrazyEddie]

You might look at resins instead of plastics?

I figured that resins counted as a kind of plastic, but the absolute last thing I want to do is split hairs with David over how he chooses to describe his ingredients, especially since he can't actually say anything about them.

Also, I'm not a chemist or a materials scientist / engineer, I'm just a dope who reads Wikipedia while scratching my head.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I guess if I really wanted a cheap set I could go with these. I just don’t like the adhesive label inlay. I’d prefer if it were “baked“ into the chip, making it more permanent.

So, the inlays in compression-molded clays are essentially that "baked into the chip" effect that you're looking for. However, adhesive labels can be really, really well-adhered to the chip and can be effectively permanent given the light use that they'll see in a home game.

Labels are definitely different from inlays, but they can be just fine for almost anyone's purposes!

I do prefer the better quality chip, but may have to settle since I really like the LGK.

That's what your samples are for. Check 'em out, and evaluate both how they look and how they feel. Judge them by your standards, not anybody else's, and if you like them, buy them!

 

[CrazyEddie]

Very interesting!
Maybe the third substance is some polymer akin to PVC. I‘m wondering what the melting point of a “clay” poker chip is. It would be cool to bake in my own inlays if they don’t melt in the kiln!

You'll want to watch this thread and this thread, then. @Strasser and @Grandmasturkey have each embarked on projects to make their own chips, and we're all eager to see how they turn out.

Maybe you'll get the DIY bug too.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Speaking of greek key molds...

I had said that CPC probably owned the old BC Wills large and small greek key molds, based on this history written by Howard Hertz from 2004 (pointer courtesy of @Jeff in Iowa) which said: "Following the purchase of the company by Hathaway and its subsequent bankruptcy, all of the B.C. Wills molds became generic property of the Burt Company and then Atlantic Molding." And as we know Atlantic Molding eventually changed hands and became CPC, and David Spragg presumably ended up with all of the ASM assets (although David has mentioned that straightening out who actually owned what was something of a challenge).

But I thought that was odd, since CPC doesn't offer the LGK/SGK molds.

But then @GianThaMan pointed out "The worn/unusable molds lie with the Museum of Gaming History now, I believe" which makes sense, maybe the molds all got retired the way that the Roman molds did.

But just now I was (again) rereading the old CPC General Discussion thread, and I came across this exchange:

David, I saw a pic of a Greek Key mold cup in Redbelly's 'crown jewels' thread. Does CPC have any size Greek Key mold which may become available in the future, please?

He has the only Greek Key cup in existence I'm afraid. We never owned either of the Greek Key's anyway.

Just to clarify, I don't have a Greek Key cup. In looking at the pictures I think your referencing the actual Greek Key Hob.

And, for reference, the pictures that Redbelly is talking about are from his post describing how he rescued a large number of molds and hobs from a mishandled part of the ASM->CPC transaction.

So. Howard Hertz thought that Burt and thus ASM and presumably CPC own the GKs, but David (who should know!) thinks he doesn't. And nobody knows where the molds are, or perhaps they've been lost or destroyed. Except that the LGK hob (!!) was among the items that Redbelly rescued from the screwed-up ASM->CPC transaction and turned over to CPC, so CPC probably has the hob? And with the hob, CPC could perhaps affordably create more cups, and thus make more chips?

Could it be possible?

 

[CrazyEddie]

... I should have continued reading.

that [the LGK hob that was in Redbelly's picture] is one of the worn out large key hobs from many years ago.

The old Burt Co small key and large key molds were retired years ago, worn out. I don't know where the small key one went, the large one I donated to a museum. There were no cups or usable hobs of either.

So. No more large greek keys, no more small greek keys, ever.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I've been researching the history of old Burt molds, and I have a little bit more information about the last years of the Small and Large Key molds that are not included in Hertz's article.

Burt/ASM got rights to the LGK and SGK molds in 1987, and in about 1989 they either sold or licensed both of those molds to The Poker Store (Stanton, CA). The Poker Store referred to those molds as Aztec (LGK) and Mini-Aztec (SGK). They claimed exclusive ownership over the molds.

By going through the archived Poker Store website (pokerstore.com) using the waybackmachine, I found that they sold custom inlaid and hot stamp chips on the SGK mold until 2001, and custom inlaid LGK chips until 2004, and sold LGK hot stamp chips until 2009.

David donated a set of Key molds and a master die to the Nevada Historical Society in 2014. I think that is the museum he is referring to in his quoted post above.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I've got a set of hotstamped monogram web molds made by Burt Co probably a very long time ago, and a set of fantasy casino web molds made by Paulson somewhat more recently (the web molds have changed hands a lot). The Burt Cos are much, much lighter and "clinky" than the Paulsons, even though they're made with the same mold. And the Paulson web molds are in turn much, much lighter than Paulson THCs.

By the way, your lightest Web mold chips might have been produced by the USPC Co. during the 1930s or 1940s, who made them before Burt got control of the mold in 1947.

Generally speaking, from weighing chips and studying order cards, compression clay chips (of all molds) got heavier on average every decade between the 1930s and the 1970s, where they kind of plateau. Burt chips are not only generally heavier than USPC chips, but later USPC produced chips are heavier than earlier USPC chips, and later produced Burt chips are generally heavier than early Burt chips.

You can actually see this transition in the order cards. I can give a quick example, the Mason order cards for their hub mold chips have recently been uploaded to the ChipGuide. On the order cards you can see that they offered chips in three different weights. The first chips starting in 1929 are "B-9", around 1935 they introduce heavier "B-10" weight chips, and during the mid-1950s they introduce the heaviest "B-11" chips.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Generally speaking, from weighing chips and studying order cards, compression clay chips (of all molds) got heavier on average every decade between the 1930s and the 1970s, where they kind of plateau.

Totally understandable; I got heavier every decade too.

 

[Talrem]

Blink and you'll miss it! I only caught it myself because I happened to have been digging back through the old CPC General Discussion thread recently. It was part of a post where David was talking about the difficulties of making spots and why there's such a difference in cost between the various spot levels.

Handmade?!? I thought it would all be done along an automatic production line!

 

[Talrem]

Speaking of greek key molds...

I had said that CPC probably owned the old BC Wills large and small greek key molds, based on this history written by Howard Hertz from 2004 (pointer courtesy of @Jeff in Iowa) which said: "Following the purchase of the company by Hathaway and its subsequent bankruptcy, all of the B.C. Wills molds became generic property of the Burt Company and then Atlantic Molding." And as we know Atlantic Molding eventually changed hands and became CPC, and David Spragg presumably ended up with all of the ASM assets (although David has mentioned that straightening out who actually owned what was something of a challenge).

But I thought that was odd, since CPC doesn't offer the LGK/SGK molds.

But then @GianThaMan pointed out "The worn/unusable molds lie with the Museum of Gaming History now, I believe" which makes sense, maybe the molds all got retired the way that the Roman molds did.

But just now I was (again) rereading the old CPC General Discussion thread, and I came across this exchange:







And, for reference, the pictures that Redbelly is talking about are from his post describing how he rescued a large number of molds and hobs from a mishandled part of the ASM->CPC transaction.

So. Howard Hertz thought that Burt and thus ASM and presumably CPC own the GKs, but David (who should know!) thinks he doesn't. And nobody knows where the molds are, or perhaps they've been lost or destroyed. Except that the LGK hob (!!) was among the items that Redbelly rescued from the screwed-up ASM->CPC transaction and turned over to CPC, so CPC probably has the hob? And with the hob, CPC could perhaps affordably create more cups, and thus make more chips?

Could it be possible?

I’ll order a set today if they’ve got the Keys, but alas it cannot be.
And to pay $50K for an original mold is nuts! I have to learn how to make my own mold and just lend it/sell it to them to make my set.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Handmade?!? I thought it would all be done along an automatic production line!

The way that CPC makes chips has been pretty much unchanged for eighty years.

 

[Talrem]

I thank everyone for their input! It’s great to learn about this stuff, and I’ll be asking more questions in the near future.
It‘s good to be part of PCF!

 

[dkellerd]

Scored these mint large keys today! 1970s era, love them! Always nice seeing metal flake in the chips that you aren’t expecting…all these have it when they catch the light. And now my tmold set must be sold.

 

[gmunny]

I've been researching the history of old Burt molds, and I have a little bit more information about the last years of the Small and Large Key molds that are not included in Hertz's article.

Burt/ASM got rights to the LGK and SGK molds in 1987, and in about 1989 they either sold or licensed both of those molds to The Poker Store (Stanton, CA). The Poker Store referred to those molds as Aztec (LGK) and Mini-Aztec (SGK). They claimed exclusive ownership over the molds.

By going through the archived Poker Store website (pokerstore.com) using the waybackmachine, I found that they sold custom inlaid and hot stamp chips on the SGK mold until 2001, and custom inlaid LGK chips until 2004, and sold LGK hot stamp chips until 2009.

David donated a set of Key molds and a master die to the Nevada Historical Society in 2014. I think that is the museum he is referring to in his quoted post above.

Jeff, any relation to this company? 415 is San Francisco area.

 

[chipinla]

I’m thrilled I was able to pick this set up recently. I had always wanted a vintage SGK set. It might be my favorite mold now.

 

[Talrem]

That’s an amazing set, @dkellerd !!
Where’d you find it?! The lgk, colors, and spots all suit my preference for vintage sets. Would have liked some spot variations (2, 3, and 4 spots), but beggars can’t be choosers!
Great find!!!

 

[dkellerd]

That’s an amazing set, @dkellerd !!
Where’d you find it?! The lgk, colors, and spots all suit my preference for vintage sets. Would have liked some spot variations (2, 3, and 4 spots), but beggars can’t be choosers!
Great find!!!

A little old place called Spinettis. I bought a sample first…then pulled the trigger on the set immediately. And for a great price I must say…

 

[chipinla]

I have access to some of these as well if interested

 

[dmoney]

A little old place called Spinettis. I bought a sample first…then pulled the trigger on the set immediately. And for a great price I must say…

That's great! I wish they would have let me know about some of these options when I messaged them a few weeks ago looking for LGKs. They must have only had the one rack for $600 at the time...

 

[dkellerd]

That's great! I wish they would have let me know about some of these options when I messaged them a few weeks ago looking for LGKs. They must have only had the one rack for $600 at the time...

I’m not sure they know this mold? They had these listed as TRKs strangely…(when they’re B. C. Wills.) I messaged to ask if they had any other ‘TRK’ sets I should consider (cuz I didn’t know any better at the time) and they responded back that this set was not the TRK mold. So I was confused, did research, and explained they were LGKs and decided to press buy on the set before the price got raised to singles pricing! I did not pay $600 a rack…I bet the link is still up on their site.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Jeff, any relation to this company? 415 is San Francisco area.

That is a really good question.

I believe that The Poker Store was originally owned by Ernie Wilson. I think he opened it in the early 1980s in Westminster, CA. Around 1990 he moved the store to Stanton, and I believe he passed away in the late 2000s. This is around the time that the store stopped using the LGK mold. After his death, the store moved to Garden Grove, CA (with likely new owners) where the store exists today. All of those locations are south of Los Angeles, and in the Orange County area, mainly in the 714 area code.

(Images courtesy of the ChipGuide)

The Poker Chip Co. as you note was in Northern California. They likely also moved around too. The ChipGuide says they were in Mammoth Lakes, which is east of the 415 area code on that chip. They are closed now. Maybe Ernie Wilson owned that store too. Maybe it was completely independent and ASM licensed the SKM mold to more than one distributor. It definitely was not an open mold. You've got me very curious. l will probably call the existing existing Poker Store to find out more of its history, and its connection to the N. California store.

Edit: Actually, it looks like the Poker Store closed a year or two ago.