Should we talk about Martin Kabhrel? (2 Viewers)

[doctorchips]

I'm going to admit that I find Kabrhel's antics entertaining. I rather see him on the Final Table rather than 6 GTO guys with hoodie plus 2 OMC.

I believe he just an attention seeker and playing the role of villain just to get more attention.

At this point, I will not be surprised with what he will do at all just to get more 3 min of fame

I would agree with this if it didn't jeopardize the actual legitimacy of the fairness of the game.

If we just brush aside cheats like this, it encourages people to try it and also discourages players who are playing in good faith and healthy competition.

 

[Frogzilla]

Partially defending against marked cards is why I use these cappers. Protect yourselves out there.

 

[upNdown]

I’m kind of surprised by Polk’s take - essentially this guy can’t be cheating because it’s way too obvious. And because the WSOP presumably has those decks and would have checked them by now and done something, if they were marked. That second part feels a little naive to me.

I do like his theory that this guy’s antics are designed to make people think he’s cheating, to make people think he can see their cards, to throw them off their games. But from what I’ve seen, that’s still a distant backup to theory #1 - he’s marking the cards.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I’m kind of surprised by Polk’s take - essentially this guy can’t be cheating because it’s way too obvious. And because the WSOP presumably has those decks and would have checked them by now and done something, if they were marked. That second part feels a little naive to me.

I do like his theory that this guy’s antics are designed to make people think he’s cheating, to make people think he can see their cards, to throw them off their games. But from what I’ve seen, that’s still a distant backup to theory #1 - he’s marking the cards.

The only thing I can say here is IF he was marking cards, why is there zero footage of players calling the floor to report these marked cards?

You would think they would notice marked cards easily given they suspected it was occurring

Instead all we get is footage of them complaining that the guy keeps standing up

Given their hate for him plus the dollar figures involved, they're incentivized to notice and call attention to any marked cards, yet we never see that happen

 

[umbkcshah]

As far as marked cards, I think players would have been able to catch anything obvious like nail markings, etc.

Invisible ink/contact lenses - ok, that requires checking the cards with various filters, etc.

Also, if marking was a major concern, I'm sure they could have come up with some big card protectors or just kept hands over the cards.

 

[ekricket]

Can’t you request a new deck? I’d have to request a new deck anytime he was in the cutoff, that way when he gets to the button (where he can get the most info from marked cards) it’s a fresh deck. I’d bend a card or drop it off the table or something to force a new deck a couple times if I had to.

 

[Frogzilla]

Also, if marking was a major concern, I'm sure they could have come up with some big card protectors or just kept hands over the cards.

Brewer had his hands completely covering the cards. Other players built little chip walls to block sight lines (and in kornuths case a massive chip wall). Dan smith would put several chips on his cards. It was kinda fun to see the defense.

It’s been actually running through back of my mind for years why none of the high rollers seem to use any sort of card protector at all, and even have both cards completely exposed (instead of cutting vulnerability in half and stacking them on top).

Martin is categorically denying any allegations and it is something checkable (you can’t unmark a card after play, the evidence is in their hands) so should get interesting

 

[doctorchips]

I’m kind of surprised by Polk’s take - essentially this guy can’t be cheating because it’s way too obvious. And because the WSOP presumably has those decks and would have checked them by now and done something, if they were marked. That second part feels a little naive to me.

I do like his theory that this guy’s antics are designed to make people think he’s cheating, to make people think he can see their cards, to throw them off their games. But from what I’ve seen, that’s still a distant backup to theory #1 - he’s marking the cards.

Super naive take of him - both parts.

There are millions of dollars on the line. People are killed every day for thousands or even hundreds of dollars.

1. If the cheating was way too obvious (which I personally don't think it was, there was enough plausible deniability) and he was allowed to get away with it because players were scared of calling someone out for it, it's on the tournament organizers to do something about it - which would have jeopardized the entire tournament (think about all the players that he eliminated and how they might have legal recourse).

2. If something looks and feels wrong, the most likely explanation (and the simplest) is that there is indeed something wrong going on. Which is exactly why they created rules about standing specifically for this player. They knew something was wrong, but they couldn't stop the entire tournament because at that later stage it would have lead to total chaos with eliminated players (imagine losing a 250,000 dollar buy-in to someone later found to have been marking cards and cheating). The WSOP doing anything about this and admitting they found marked cards would lead to a flood of people asking for their buy-ins back, or threatening legal action, or the gaming commission getting involved. That's assuming they know what to look for and he doesn't have a novel way of marking these cards which is also totally possible.

How many of you would feel totally fine with someone at your home game flicking, bending, digging at the cards with their nails and constantly trying to get an up close look at the cards other players have?

 

[Tallguy]

Super naive take of him - both parts.

There are millions of dollars on the line. People are killed every day for thousands or even hundreds of dollars.

1. If the cheating was way too obvious (which I personally don't think it was, there was enough plausible deniability) and he was allowed to get away with it because players were scared of calling someone out for it, it's on the tournament organizers to do something about it - which would have jeopardized the entire tournament (think about all the players that he eliminated and how they might have legal recourse).

2. If something looks and feels wrong, the most likely explanation (and the simplest) is that there is indeed something wrong going on. Which is exactly why they created rules about standing specifically for this player. They knew something was wrong, but they couldn't stop the entire tournament because at that later stage it would have lead to total chaos with eliminated players (imagine losing a 250,000 dollar buy-in to someone later found to have been marking cards and cheating). The WSOP doing anything about this and admitting they found marked cards would lead to a flood of people asking for their buy-ins back, or threatening legal action, or the gaming commission getting involved. That's assuming they know what to look for and he doesn't have a novel way of marking these cards which is also totally possible.

How many of you would feel totally fine with someone at your home game flicking, bending, digging at the cards with their nails and constantly trying to get an up close look at the cards other players have?

If someone marks up my Modianos, we’ve got BIG problems.

 

[buzzmonkey]

Brewer at one point had his hand on his cards. Kabhrel leaned over to look, and Brewer put his other hand on top and started laughing at Kabhrel.

 

[dkellerd]

Quote below is from Kabhrel…so he’s possibly autistic?? That could explain everything…I’ve never watched him before personally.

 

[Tallguy]

As a fellow autistic person, I am unaware of any traits that cause you to press your fingernails into cards and then lean over within a foot of other peoples cards and stare at them. I’m not a psychologist though. So ‍…

 

[ekricket]

I think everyone and anyone is more than respective and willing to accommodate KNOWN issues.
Known meaning “tell us what to expect” and not “well I have an issue so anything could happen, but I’m blameless afterwards for any precautions you didn’t take about stuff I didn’t tell you about”

I mean if he has problems with poking cards then they can make arrangements for new decks every hand or crease resistant cards.
If he can’t see stacks they could give him a display showing him amounts.

They would accommodate anything he told them about.

 

[Budha]

Super naive take of him - both parts.

There are millions of dollars on the line. People are killed every day for thousands or even hundreds of dollars.

1. If the cheating was way too obvious (which I personally don't think it was, there was enough plausible deniability) and he was allowed to get away with it because players were scared of calling someone out for it, it's on the tournament organizers to do something about it - which would have jeopardized the entire tournament (think about all the players that he eliminated and how they might have legal recourse).

2. If something looks and feels wrong, the most likely explanation (and the simplest) is that there is indeed something wrong going on. Which is exactly why they created rules about standing specifically for this player. They knew something was wrong, but they couldn't stop the entire tournament because at that later stage it would have lead to total chaos with eliminated players (imagine losing a 250,000 dollar buy-in to someone later found to have been marking cards and cheating). The WSOP doing anything about this and admitting they found marked cards would lead to a flood of people asking for their buy-ins back, or threatening legal action, or the gaming commission getting involved. That's assuming they know what to look for and he doesn't have a novel way of marking these cards which is also totally possible.

How many of you would feel totally fine with someone at your home game flicking, bending, digging at the cards with their nails and constantly trying to get an up close look at the cards other players have?

Or, it’s a strategy, to annoy and get people off their game. Equally plausible.

I agree with if something looks/feels wrong, it’s usually wrong. However in this case, he’s being purposely blatant.

Also, potentially good point on WSOP being disincentivized to call out the cheating. However, Caesars Ent is a business first and foremost, and a highly regulated one at that. It is run by skilled business people and attorneys. If they know there is cheating, I highly doubt they would just cover it up. The risk for them in all aspects of their primary business is just too high. A couple $M in refunded buy-ins is financially immaterial to Caesars.

Occam’s Razor - As intentionally and purposefully blatant as he’s being, would suggest it’s a strategy.

 

[buzzmonkey]

I think everyone and anyone is more than respective and willing to accommodate KNOWN issues.
Known meaning “tell us what to expect” and not “well I have an issue so anything could happen, but I’m blameless afterwards for any precautions you didn’t take about stuff I didn’t tell you about”

I mean if he has problems with poking cards then they can make arrangements for new decks every hand or crease resistant cards.
If he can’t see stacks they could give him a display showing him amounts.

They would accommodate anything he told them about.

There used to be a "Johnny Chan" rule that prevented more than one deck change per dealer rotation unless the floor requested it. Apparently Chan used to ask for a new deck every hand he lost if he felt he was in a run of some bad luck.

 

[doctorchips]

Or, it’s a strategy, to annoy and get people off their game. Equally plausible.

I agree with if something looks/feels wrong, it’s usually wrong. However in this case, he’s being purposely blatant.

Also, potentially good point on WSOP being disincentivized to call out the cheating. However, Caesars Ent is a business first and foremost, and a highly regulated one at that. It is run by skilled business people and attorneys. If they know there is cheating, I highly doubt they would just cover it up. The risk for them in all aspects of their primary business is just too high. A couple $M in refunded buy-ins is financially immaterial to Caesars.

Occam’s Razor - As intentionally and purposefully blatant as he’s being, would suggest it’s a strategy

I've seen annoying people before.

I've never seen someone annoying that is physically pressing and has a tick that involves using their nails to prick and scrap the cards.

Did you consider that part of his cheat is mixing it with things that are blatant on purpose and aren't cheating? So if I bump, poke, scrape, twist and bend the cards 9/10 times as a misdirection to the 1/10 times I'm actually marking cards for something useful, it's still cheating just harder to identify.

I think it's a scapegoat strategy. Now instead of critiquing his bizarre hand movements and pressing the cards as cheating, we're critiquing a mentally disabled or autistic person for their inability to act 'normally'. This guy is literally using every attempt to direct it away from him blatantly scraping the cards and ignoring rules placed on the final table, specifically because of his actions.

If it was just a strategy, why did all of the players at the table start feeling the need to completely cover their cards and shield them from his sight?

Why did he start running bad once they started covering their cards?

Occam's razor suggests that this is simply cheating, not some elaborate attempt to appear as if he is cheating when he's just developed some hyper intelligent strategy that tilts the other players.

In my opinion, this is just a blatant cheater who's been caught on camera and is now trying to justify all of his bizarre behaviour in retrospect.

 

[doctorchips]

Quote below is from Kabhrel…so he’s possibly autistic?? That could explain everything…I’ve never watched him before personally.

View attachment 1153389

Funny, he never actually denies the accusations. Just says that it's out of line to call him that?

 

[Rieguy]

At best it's an angle, at worst it is exactly what it looks like, openly cheating. If Robbi was at a table doing this during a mundane cash game everyone would be shitting themselves. This is the WSOP; it is absurd the floor was not all over this already.

 

[ekricket]

Lol, I think the proper way to decide if he is a cheater or not is to look at his business associates and family.
That seems to be the only reliable judge of cheating or not based on the whole J4 scenario earlier this year. Anything else, - video, testimony, any other evidence is moot, it’s only who their associates are that can decide if they are guilty or not of cheating. Oh and “hunches” count too I think.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Funny, he never actually denies the accusations. Just says that it's out of line to call him that?

So if you believe he is marking cards, why didn't any of these pros find marked cards and report them to the floor?

All I've seen is them calling the floor because he stood up

Why eouldn't the pros be actively looking for marked cards to report to the floor given they suspected he was doing it?

 

[Frogzilla]

Funny, he never actually denies the accusations. Just says that it's out of line to call him that?

He fully denies the cheating in the Twitter thread. That quote is just an excerpt.

 

[doctorchips]

So if you believe he is marking cards, why didn't any of these pros find marked cards and report them to the floor?

All I've seen is them calling the floor because he stood up

Why eouldn't the pros be actively looking for marked cards to report to the floor given they suspected he was doing it?

They're in the middle of playing a 250k high roller event. I'm sure the last thing they wanted to do was make a public accusation at the table.

But we DO know that all of the players around him started to completely shut off any views of their cards to him specifically. hmmm. Wonder why?

I'd say the players were doing as best they could to focus on the game and playing as if there wasn't any marking going on. Also possible he has a system to mark that isn't known yet.

The video evidence I've seen isn't just him fumbling with cards, he's making specific indents and using his nails to clip at the edge.

Why do you think the floor added the rule about standing up specifically at that table?

 

[Anthony Martino]

They're in the middle of playing a 250k high roller event. I'm sure the last thing they wanted to do was make a public accusation at the table.

But we DO know that all of the players around him started to completely shut off any views of their cards to him specifically. hmmm. Wonder why?

I'd say the players were doing as best they could to focus on the game and playing as if there wasn't any marking going on. Also possible he has a system to mark that isn't known yet.

The video evidence I've seen isn't just him fumbling with cards, he's making specific indents and using his nails to clip at the edge.

Why do you think the floor added the rule about standing up specifically at that table?

I agree the footage looks like he's marking cards

What I don't get is someones reluctance to find these marked cards and notify the floor so a cheater can be dealt with

They don't want Martin in any of their events, why would they be reluctant to catch him cheating and get him outted?

 

[Budha]

I've seen annoying people before.

I've never seen someone annoying that is physically pressing and has a tick that involves using their nails to prick and scrap the cards.

Did you consider that part of his cheat is mixing it with things that are blatant on purpose and aren't cheating? So if I bump, poke, scrape, twist and bend the cards 9/10 times as a misdirection to the 1/10 times I'm actually marking cards for something useful, it's still cheating just harder to identify.

I think it's a scapegoat strategy. Now instead of critiquing his bizarre hand movements and pressing the cards as cheating, we're critiquing a mentally disabled or autistic person for their inability to act 'normally'. This guy is literally using every attempt to direct it away from him blatantly scraping the cards and ignoring rules placed on the final table, specifically because of his actions.

If it was just a strategy, why did all of the players at the table start feeling the need to completely cover their cards and shield them from his sight?

Why did he start running bad once they started covering their cards?

Occam's razor suggests that this is simply cheating, not some elaborate attempt to appear as if he is cheating when he's just developed some hyper intelligent strategy that tilts the other players.

In my opinion, this is just a blatant cheater who's been caught on camera and is now trying to justify all of his bizarre behaviour in retrospect.

Relevant and reasonable counters have already been put forth, no need to rehash them.

But interestingly enough, Phil Ivey has been at the table in both of the most recent cheating scandals. Hmmmm, what does that mean……

 

[upNdown]

I agree the footage looks like he's marking cards

What I don't get is someones reluctance to find these marked cards and notify the floor so a cheater can be dealt with

They don't want Martin in any of their events, why would they be reluctant to catch him cheating and get him outted?

One factor that everybody seems to be ignoring is that cards get marked up. It happens at every game I host, and I've seen players complain about it at every WSOP. I'm sure most of the time its innocent negligence, but all those innocent marks could make identifying intentional marks more challenging.

 

[upNdown]

Relevant and reasonable counters have already been put forth, no need to rehash them.

But interestingly enough, Phil Ivey has been at the table in both of the most recent cheating scandals. Hmmmm, what does that mean……

YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PHIL IVEY!!!!

 

[Anthony Martino]

One factor that everybody seems to be ignoring is that cards get marked up. It happens at every game I host, and I've seen players complain about it at every WSOP. I'm sure most of the time its innocent negligence, but all those innocent marks could make identifying intentional marks more challenging.

I would think for a 250K buyin the players could request a fresh deck that is brand new and then it should be pretty simple to catch any intentional marks at that point, no?

 

[doctorchips]

I agree the footage looks like he's marking cards

What I don't get is someones reluctance to find these marked cards and notify the floor so a cheater can be dealt with

They don't want Martin in any of their events, why would they be reluctant to catch him cheating and get him outted?

In the moment, I just think it's easier to say "why didn't someone look for marked cards?" because they're literally sitting there trying to play for millions of dollars and totally focused on that goal.

It's not in your best interest to sit there and focus on a potential cheater and try to look for specific evidence of cheating. That's the host's job, and I'd say they failed absolutely spectacularly in that regard.

You're taking them focusing on the play vs. looking for suspect cards or invisible ink/scratches in specific spots that could easily just be that way from the actual use of the cards. That's why it's not up to the players to stop the tournament and examine the cards used.

100% on the host and the casino to ensure it was fair.

The footage is all I need really, it's literally right there and he's physically scraping and puncturing the sides of certain cards.

 

[doctorchips]

Relevant and reasonable counters have already been put forth, no need to rehash them.

But interestingly enough, Phil Ivey has been at the table in both of the most recent cheating scandals. Hmmmm, what does that mean……

Phil Ivey was also not repeatedly seen scraping and poking cards in strange ways.

This has nothing to do with Martin personally. Would you be ok with someone behaving this way at your home game, or playing at the same table as someone doing this?

 

[upNdown]

I would think for a 250K buyin the players could request a fresh deck that is brand new and then it should be pretty simple to catch any intentional marks at that point, no?

Theoretically, I guess so.
But again, that assumes the WSOP has any interest in doing so.
You've played a few hands in a casino, and you've been involved in catching cheaters, so tell me this - are you aware of or have you experienced a casino taking any further steps after switching out a deck?