Should we talk about Martin Kabhrel? (2 Viewers)

doctorchips said:
You're taking them focusing on the play vs. looking for suspect cards or invisible ink/scratches in specific spots that could easily just be that way from the actual use of the cards. That's why it's not up to the players to stop the tournament and examine the cards used.

100% on the host and the casino to ensure it was fair.
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Gotta disagree here. As a player you have a responsibility to the integrity of the game too. Regardless of buyin amount, if I suspected someone was marking cards I'm going to examine my cards (especially key cards) for marks and report any that I find.

Also, these guys play high roller events all over the globe, the loss of time/attention to check their cards in this one event to out someone they believe is cheating and marking cards so that across the span of a gazillion other high roller events they play he'll be ostracized and shunned from those events greatly outweighs the potential loss of focus in this one event (not to mention they already were experiencing a loss of focus as they continued to be bothered by his antics and calling the floor on him for standing)
 
Anthony Martino said:
Gotta disagree here. As a player you have a responsibility to the integrity of the game too. Regardless of buyin amount, if I suspected someone was marking cards I'm going to examine my cards (especially key cards) for marks and report any that I find.

Also, these guys play high roller events all over the globe, the loss of time/attention to check their cards in this one event to out someone they believe is cheating and marking cards so that across the span of a gazillion other high roller events they play he'll be ostracized and shunned from those events greatly outweighs the potential loss of focus in this one event (not to mention they already were experiencing a loss of focus as they continued to be bothered by his antics and calling the floor on him for standing)
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First, how do you determine marks from existing play, or actual marks used to cheat? How do you also know he isn't using a novel system and then obfuscating it by doing all kinds of other weird marks and movements around the cards. How do you discern those marks and movements from cheating?

You'd basically spend most of your time at the table trying to determine if he's cheating or not instead of focusing on the millions of dollars on the line.

It requires stopping play, bringing the floor over and making a case that the card is marked, and then swapping out the deck (which Kabrhel actually did, he's the one who mentioned card marking lol). And then you're essentially introducing the idea that someone at the table isn't on the level, so you're implying the accusation of a cheater sitting at the table.

Which is exactly what happened, and the other players responded accordingly by covering their cards completely and the floor adding an adhoc rule to say that nobody could stand up to lean over other players (lol).

He's going to be ostracized from this, regardless of the 'official' outcome.

Integrity of the game and potential cheating are serious accusations, so it's not really a surprise if nobody wants to come out directly and say it (like Dan did in the interview after).

If there's smoke...
 
ekricket said:
The decks in use probably had too many markings already and he needed a fresh deck to make marks on that he could discern from previous use.
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Like a cheating spouse who accuses you of cheating.

Also, theoretically how hard would it be to use invisible ink + water bottle and contact lenses designed to see those marks? According to my extremely basic google search...

https://www.invisibleinkcontactlenses.com/
 
doctorchips said:
Phil Ivey was also not repeatedly seen scraping and poking cards in strange ways.
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Exactly - but the fact he is present at both events is suspect, is it not. What are the odds.

Don’t bother with other rational explanations, they are meaningless. It’s just too coincidental that he is the only constant at both instances of recent cheating.

Would you want someone at your game who for whatever reason, cheating always seems to occur when he’s at the table?

Yes, I’m intentionally being a bit obtuse here.

I don’t know if the guy is marking cards or not. It’s certainly possible he’s that brazen. I also think it’s equally (if not more) plausible it’s all an act/strategy to get people off their game.


NOTE: No, I am not really suggesting anything untoward about Phil Ivey - lol.
 
doctorchips said:
I've seen annoying people before.

I've never seen someone annoying that is physically pressing and has a tick that involves using their nails to prick and scrap the cards.

Did you consider that part of his cheat is mixing it with things that are blatant on purpose and aren't cheating? So if I bump, poke, scrape, twist and bend the cards 9/10 times as a misdirection to the 1/10 times I'm actually marking cards for something useful, it's still cheating just harder to identify.

I think it's a scapegoat strategy. Now instead of critiquing his bizarre hand movements and pressing the cards as cheating, we're critiquing a mentally disabled or autistic person for their inability to act 'normally'. This guy is literally using every attempt to direct it away from him blatantly scraping the cards and ignoring rules placed on the final table, specifically because of his actions.

If it was just a strategy, why did all of the players at the table start feeling the need to completely cover their cards and shield them from his sight?

Why did he start running bad once they started covering their cards?

Occam's razor suggests that this is simply cheating, not some elaborate attempt to appear as if he is cheating when he's just developed some hyper intelligent strategy that tilts the other players.

In my opinion, this is just a blatant cheater who's been caught on camera and is now trying to justify all of his bizarre behaviour in retrospect.
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Lol, I have a tic that requires me to flip over my opponents cards right before I decide my action. Is that gonna be a problem?
 
doctorchips said:
Like a cheating spouse who accuses you of cheating.

Also, theoretically how hard would it be to use invisible ink + water bottle and contact lenses designed to see those marks? According to my extremely basic google search...

https://www.invisibleinkcontactlenses.com/
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This one caught my attention:

So it has a camera that supposedly scans the card. I don't see how it can do that (accurately) and the app just says 1 3, 1 3, 1 3 .... This makes no sense to me. Anyone have any theories? If you look at the app he has, it says 4 players, and then 13. But what does it mean?
 
Rakrul said:
This one caught my attention:

So it has a camera that supposedly scans the card. I don't see how it can do that (accurately) and the app just says 1 3, 1 3, 1 3 .... This makes no sense to me. Anyone have any theories? If you look at the app he has, it says 4 players, and then 13. But what does it mean?
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A lot of baccarat and pai gow have shuffler/scanner combos to make sure game gets dealt correctly, they are real and they work. I don’t know what the app is coded to output, perhaps winning hand position? For this scheme in a poker setting, the dealer also needs to be a mechanic that can cut to a specific depth.

Koray Aldemir made a “maybe he knew King was coming” comment at the end of IG story about a strange 3bet-call line Martin took with K7s (Koray had AQ). Still, seems really far fetched. Not at all consistent with what I saw on FT. Haven’t seen the day 2 stream yet tho.
 
Yeah sorry, I should've been clearer. My post had nothing to do with Martin/WSOP. I own a shuffletech and was curious if someone was using it for cheating. First of all if this is something I should be aware of when hosting but especially if I'm playing in an underground club or similar where they're using this. My first thought was that this was a scam, but I guess worst case you end up with shuffler. I'd also would want to know what to look for and educate my players what they should look for.
 
Budha said:
Exactly - but the fact he is present at both events is suspect, is it not. What are the odds.

Don’t bother with other rational explanations, they are meaningless. It’s just too coincidental that he is the only constant at both instances of recent cheating.

Would you want someone at your game who for whatever reason, cheating always seems to occur when he’s at the table?

Yes, I’m intentionally being a bit obtuse here.

I don’t know if the guy is marking cards or not. It’s certainly possible he’s that brazen. I also think it’s equally (if not more) plausible it’s all an act/strategy to get people off their game.


NOTE: No, I am not really suggesting anything untoward about Phil Ivey - lol.
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Was Phil Ivey identified as cheating in poker?

Or are you referring to the actual cuts of the cards he was using against the casino were misaligned in the baccarat session he played in?

I would argue strongly that physically altering cards in a game against other players is cheating and identifying design flaws on cards that are freely provided by the casino is separate. It's like counting cards vs. having a dealer in on the scam who stacks the deck. One is just using your brain, the other is introducing something that no other player is capable whatsoever of taking advantage of.

If Martin had been identifying improperly cut cards provided by the tournament, it would be an advantage but it wouldn't be the same as him introducing fake cards, marking cards...etc.

So yea, you can try and make the comparison - but it's not the same thing at all.
 
doctorchips said:
Was Phil Ivey identified as cheating in poker?

Or are you referring to the actual cuts of the cards he was using against the casino were misaligned?

I would argue strongly that physically altering cards in a game against other players is cheating and identifying design flaws on cards that are freely provided by the casino is separate.

If Martin had been identifying improperly cut cards provided by the tournament, it would be an advantage but it wouldn't be the same as him introducing fake cards, marking cards...etc.

So yea, you can try and make the comparison - but it's not the same thing at all.
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I think the point was lost - lol.

I was making a ridiculous assumption using totally irrefutable evidence that was nonetheless ludicrous.
 
dkellerd said:
Quote below is from Kabhrel…so he’s possibly autistic?? That could explain everything…I’ve never watched him before personally.

View attachment 1153389
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All due respect to people on the spectrum, but I've seen enough of him to know that he's intentionally being as annoying as possible. I have no idea if hes on the spectrum or not and I really don't care because it doesn't excuse his behavior. The cheating allegations are a separate thing, and we don't know if they're true. But we know for sure that he intentionally annoys the other players at his table.
 
Budha said:
I think the point was lost - lol.

I was making a ridiculous assumption using totally irrefutable evidence that was nonetheless ludicrous.
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What was your point?

It's why I asked you if Phil has even ever been suspected of cheating in poker. Kabhrel has been accused multiple times, at different tournaments...
 
Polk made his point pretty well, surprised that it flew by a few of you. Cheating by marking cards would and will be caught by WSOP in this investigation. They have the decks. They have a record of every card dealt to whom. They have video of the whole table from lots of angles. 2 min with the deck and IR glasses, a black light, and polarized glasses should be sufficient to see if they have invisible ink. Detect/classify creases and scratches would take another minute or two. Figuring out who those cards got dealt to, probably easy but worse case somebody is tediously scraping the feed for two hours.

We should have a definitive marked card answer either way pretty soon
 
Polk live with durrr now discussing. Interesting if you have a min to kill on a commute. I recommend the “start at beginning and do 1.5x” move
 
Don’t know if it was said before, but didn’t Martin have a big stack at the beginning of the FT?

That’s probably why the players didn’t want to change decks. I know I wouldn’t in that situation. He’s tanking enough as it is.
 
Frogzilla said:
Polk made his point pretty well, surprised that it flew by a few of you. Cheating by marking cards would and will be caught by WSOP in this investigation. They have the decks. They have a record of every card dealt to whom. They have video of the whole table from lots of angles. 2 min with the deck and IR glasses, a black light, and polarized glasses should be sufficient to see if they have invisible ink. Detect/classify creases and scratches would take another minute or two. Figuring out who those cards got dealt to, probably easy but worse case somebody is tediously scraping the feed for two hours.

We should have a definitive marked card answer either way pretty soon
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I guess the one thing that is a concern is that there's a vested interest in playing this down, by WSOP and also by the Casino. If they admit that someone was capable of reaching the final table of the literal highest buy-in tournament in the WSOP it kind of damages the brand and the confidence of people entering into it. As far as they're claiming to do a full investigation and check all the cards, think about what is easy to deal with (announcing no evidence) and what would be difficult to deal with (announcing he did mark the cards).

If he was definitely marking cards and they find marked cards, what happens to the payouts? What happens for all the players who bought in and were eliminated by him? Would they pay back to those players?

There's incentive on the WSOP, Casino and the commission to reassure players that their money is safe coming to play poker in Vegas, and that cheating like this can't be possible at a final table with these stakes. They would basically be publicly saying "one player fooled us all".

edit: Tom Dwan just brought this up too. And the WSOP didn't save cards last time there was something where Dwan went to them with a complaint. The Nevada commission risks their own status by announcing there was confirmed cheating. Didn't realize that.
 
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Never answer his questions, constantly cover your cards, and just completely ignore anything he says or does. Also, when he loses a hand, just quietly chuckle at him. People fucking hate that, particularly the ones trying to get under your skin. They hate being ignored and they hate being effectively mocked.
 
1) iirc Ivey’s controversy involved Baccarat, not poker, and the circumstances were very complicated.

2) There were also some claims and at least one video which seemed to show Kabhrel’s fingers *sticking* to cards. Not clear what advantage this would give if true. The marking videos are plenty damning.
 
Pros at table seem to be leaning toward “Pretending to mark cards” and while not conclusive, it does fit a lot of the evidence.

The cards from all accounts were checked and markings were not found. The “fake marking cards” seems ridiculous at first but if you think how you might play differently against someone who knows your cards…playing less pots against them, bluffing them less, etc, maybe not so ridiculous.
 
Polk has an hour long interview with Martin, posted just a few hours ago. I got halfway through it, but the players championship is on now. SO MUCH CONTENT!!
 
DoubleEagle said:
Appears fake to me.
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Fake as in has no legal merit? (This is true).

Or fake as in it is a joke/prank? Because the guy is a real practicing lawyer. Looks like is some IP lawyer that Martin found without knowing anything about lawyers or the American legal system.
 

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