Early level MTT hand discussion (2 Viewers)

[MrSonOfABeech]

Hand in question took place last Friday at my local card room last Friday evening. $40R, $20AO. Roughly $2,000 up top.

Approximately 50 of 60 players remaining. Blinds 1.5k/3k. Hero has roughly 170k effective.

UTG limps. CO raises to 23k. CO had been playing snug, but tended to open pots for larger amounts when he did raise. I have JsJd on the button. I elect to flat. Folds to UTG limper who rips it in for about a million BBs (roughly 250k ish, enough to cover everyone at the table). CO tank folded. I hummed and hawed and ultimately decided that I was under repped with my flat and I decided to flip for heaps. Turns out it wasn't a flip at all as UTG tabled AhJh. Flop was a horrendous Ad6h9c. Turn 8h, river 2h because why not. GG.

UTG, despite the limp pre, was a pretty wild player. I considered folding as I was certain I would get him in a better spot later on (he was playing many hands, loosely and wildly). Thoughts on the hand? Should I have folded and waited for a better spot, or was I correct in calling off for heaps with Jacks?

Thanks in advance to those who reply!

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Why flat? Lots of players behind you, you're begging for a squeeze with a hand that's tough to play. That many players behind plus the limp to play against, 3bet is better. Otherwise you're underrepped and calling here if I don't have some kind of read on UTG.

Might not change the outcome of the hand, how was UTG playing? Did he mean this as a squeeze or was he just a donkey that saw pretty cards?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I question the flat-call of the initial raise too, especially on the button. Good spot to set up a huge pot where you'll have position.

As played, I'm folding to the shove all day, unless I've seen this specific player make this particular play with hands other than AA/KK.

There are way better spots to get your money in than calling all-in with a pair less than aces against a backraise.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hand in question took place last Friday at my local card room last Friday evening. $40R, $20AO. Roughly $2,000 up top.

Approximately 50 of 60 players remaining. Blinds 1.5k/3k. Hero has roughly 170k effective.

UTG limps. CO raises to 23k. CO had been playing snug, but tended to open pots for larger amounts when he did raise. I have JsJd on the button. I elect to flat. Folds to UTG limper who rips it in for about a million BBs (roughly 250k ish, enough to cover everyone at the table). CO tank folded. I hummed and hawed and ultimately decided that I was under repped with my flat and I decided to flip for heaps. Turns out it wasn't a flip at all as UTG tabled AhJh. Flop was a horrendous Ad6h9c. Turn 8h, river 2h because why not. GG.

UTG, despite the limp pre, was a pretty wild player. I considered folding as I was certain I would get him in a better spot later on (he was playing many hands, loosely and wildly). Thoughts on the hand? Should I have folded and waited for a better spot, or was I correct in calling off for heaps with Jacks?

Thanks in advance to those who reply!

Awesome user name, btw.

Setting aside the limp, I don't hate your second action how it played out. You perceived the CO as being the likely strength in the hand and UTG as a bit of a loose cannon, so given the CO folded before it got back to you, you find yourself heads up with a strong hand and an opponent that could easily be making a move. So I understand the call off here. There is no doubt CO threw away a better hand than villain at least, I would doubt he threw away QQ+, though.

But if your read is cutoff is snug and has raised about 7BB over a limper, I think it's a raise or fold situation. Even in the best case scenario here, you hemmed and hawed about a raise (which would have bene to at least 15BB) so you called, but then put yourself in a position call off your last 50ish BB in a spot where you sometimes will be a 2-1 favorite in the best case, but sometimes even money or 4-1 against.

I think if you are going to play this hand, I would 3-bet this. I really don't think I would have a flatting range at all against a 7BB raise on the button.

If UTG still ships it, and CO folds, then you have an easy call. If you get the opposite action, UTG folds and CO ships it, then you have an easy fold. The limp (and underrepresentation justification) clouded this hand.

You had a bad runout for sure, but when the money went in, it was about the best case scenario for you after the decision to flat with JJ. But the best case scenario is going to be rare.

Personally, even if my read is CO is tight, I'm going to probably 3-bet this to 15-20BB, planning to fold if CO goes with it. If he's tight, he may fold some 50-50 spots here, he may call with Ax and give up on missed flop which would be easy to play given we have position. If he 4-bets pre, I will give him credit for QQ+ and fold. Even if he does this with AK, I can live with letting him earn this one. But I also like having a little something in my 3-bet range that I am willing to fold just to be less predictable. I'm going with QQ+ and AKs even against a tight Cutoff for sure, I can have JJ as a 3-bet-fold hand.

And then if I take this 3-bet line, then I am probably going with UTG if he rips it (which he may be less likely to do seeing we as hero have commit 15 BB to this pot) unless CO has something to call with, then again I have an easy fold.

All that said, if you are uncomfortable raising JJ over a 7BB sizing from cutoff, then you probably are better off just folding then. The rest of the hand went well for you this time (aside from the runout obviously), but more often than not, you will put yourself in a tough spot, and often even folding pre when CO has the goods anyway, which I assume is what you were concerned about when you decided not to raise in the first place.

 

[Legend5555]

So with the 7.67 bb raise, there is ~11bb in the middle. We have 57bb. Any 3bet basically commits us, and we don't really want to incentivize CO to call by min clicking to like 50k when we will only have 120k behind. Honestly, unless you think the CO is some MASSIVE nitt who would only do this with QQ-AA, I think you just rip it. The pot is already almost 20% of your stack. The raise is too big to set mine. Calling invites others in. If you can get CO to fold AQ, KQ, then it's a massive win for you.

So yeah. Seems silly, but so is the 7.67x raise. I say jam pre.

 

[JustinInMN]

So with the 7.67 bb raise, there is ~11bb in the middle. We have 57bb. Any 3bet basically commits us, and we don't really want to incentivize CO to call by min clicking to like 50k when we will only have 120k behind. Honestly, unless you think the CO is some MASSIVE nitt who would only do this with QQ-AA, I think you just rip it. The pot is already almost 20% of your stack. The raise is too big to set mine. Calling invites others in. If you can get CO to fold AQ, KQ, then it's a massive win for you.

So yeah. Seems silly, but so is the 7.67x raise. I say jam pre.

Interesting, your point that doing a min click to 15BB does mean CO will probably at least call 100% is very well taken. Still we have position on the CO and can navigate the flop accordingly.

I don't agree such a sizing commits us, and even if we went a little stiffer to 18-20BB to try and introduce some folds to CO, I think we can fold and keep 37BB behind, even in a prospective 80BB pot. It's not great, but it's a bit of insurance if we are confident CO is shoving on 100% of QQ+.

But this choice of sizing is very illustrative of deciding on a sizing small enough to put some doubt in whether or not we are "commit" and large enough to try and get some "fold equity."

 

[AH77]

Without getting too technical, it seems like the field is full of loose/fun/inexperienced players. When you flip for heaps pre flop with jacks you are playing THEIR game. My goal with jacks here would be to see a flop in position and try to drag them in deeper waters where they are less comfortable and make them play YOUR game. So in this case, I’d just fold and move on to the next hand.

 

[wickedwonka121]

I see a lot of good advice in this thread. Regardless of how the UTG player has been playing, the shove was a good bet against your JJ (which is overrated). There are too many outs against you to follow that bet into the lurch, and you still have your CO that may call. With a bet like that I would have put them on at least A10, so now you're making the hard decision. Bad place to be. Cut it loose and catch em next time.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Without getting too technical, it seems like the field is full of loose/fun/inexperienced players. When you flip for heaps pre flop with jacks you are playing THEIR game. My goal with jacks here would be to see a flop in position and try to drag them in deeper waters where they are less comfortable and make them play YOUR game. So in this case, I’d just fold and move on to the next hand.

I dunno, putting pressure on people who play too many hands when I have premiums is my type of game though, not theirs. I see the discussion above about raising vs jamming all of it, but I'm definitely pressuring the rest of the field instead of calling and asking politely for a tougher decision.

You might just be talking about last decision (call the jam or fold), if so just ignore me, I type too much.

 

[wickedwonka121]

I dunno, putting pressure on people who play too many hands when I have premiums is my type of game though, not theirs. I see the discussion above about raising vs jamming all of it, but I'm definitely pressuring the rest of the field instead of calling and asking politely for a tougher decision.

You might just be talking about last decision (call the jam or fold), if so just ignore me, I type too much.

100%. Raise those premiums, always. Calling the shove with JJ is the hard decision I think. Especially with other live hands still waiting for their turn.

 

[AH77]

I dunno, putting pressure on people who play too many hands when I have premiums is my type of game though, not theirs. I see the discussion above about raising vs jamming all of it, but I'm definitely pressuring the rest of the field instead of calling and asking politely for a tougher decision.

You might just be talking about last decision (call the jam or fold), if so just ignore me, I type too much.

Normally I’d be in favor of a 3 bet if I felt that it would shut out the UTG limper and put max pressure on the original raiser in the cutoff but I’m not certain the UTG player doesn’t just rip it anyway here which puts us in a position where we almost HAVE to call instead of having the option of folding. Like you said, he most likely was just be a donk who saw pretty cards and was trying to have fun.

The almost 8x initial raise is already problematic because it’s forcing us to put in more money than we’d like with not much information. The 3 bet commits us so when UTG rips it, we are back at square one - flipping for heaps with a pair of jacks.

Note: this only applies if I feel like I am more skilled than the rest of the field. If not, then I am more comfortable taking my chances in these kinds of spots.

 

[JustinInMN]

Without getting too technical, it seems like the field is full of loose/fun/inexperienced players. When you flip for heaps pre flop with jacks you are playing THEIR game. My goal with jacks here would be to see a flop in position and try to drag them in deeper waters where they are less comfortable and make them play YOUR game. So in this case, I’d just fold and move on to the next hand.

The structure of the event becomes a consideration too, sometimes a flip with JJ is the best chance one will get to acquire chips if the blinds move fast. Hero is probably going to look at 2-3 orbits worth of hands before is 60BB stack gets reduced to 30BB. A 3-bet raise (or a shove as is @Legend5555 's preference, which I believe has merit as well.) gives hero a chance to pick up 10BB uncontested, or have a decent chance to gain 70BB.

I know players that perceive an advantage like to wait for the best spot, but sometimes that doesn't come. I know CO is tight, but so long as he doesn't have QQ+, this is a favorable spot for JJ.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Jacks is a 100% 3! As played a limp/reraise is a huge sign of strength. I think most players do this with AQs+, JJ+ and AKo. You’ve got 36% equity against this range. You need to call 49BB to win approximately 67.5BB. If my math is right that this is a fold. Especially in a tournament.

 

[AH77]

The structure of the event becomes a consideration too, sometimes a flip with JJ is the best chance one will get to acquire chips if the blinds move fast. Hero is probably going to look at 2-3 orbits worth of hands before is 60BB stack gets reduced to 30BB. A 3-bet raise (or a shove as is @Legend5555 's preference) gives hero a chance to pick up 10BB uncontested, or have a decent chance to gain 70BB.

I know players that perceive an advantage like to wait for the best spot, but sometimes that doesn't come. I know CO is tight, but so long as he doesn't have QQ+, this is a favorable spot for JJ.

That’s a good point too. I also didn’t consider at what stage of the rebuy period the tournament was in when this hand came up.

 

[Frogzilla]

IP flat seems fine. Flatting and jamming seem pretty close here. I lean flat. I doubt there is a preflop chart for this spot but IP ranges usually have some flats.

Facing shove call it off unless player is limp-raise-means-aces guy. Top of range.

I question the flat-call of the initial raise too, especially on the button. Good spot to set up a huge pot where you'll have position.

This is the argument for flatting…keeps you IP in the big pot (raise all in means no position)

The raise is too big to set mine. Calling invites others in.

It’s JJ though and has a decent chance of flopping overpair and being good, if it’s monotone the J is good card blocking flushes and can call down; set mining math not so applicable.

 

[Gunnar]

Are we looking for double up or rebuy- then jam it right away.

Are we looking for playing strong and smart to build up our stack in good spots then this is not really one of them. We are flipping against AK and AQ and losing against AA KK QQ. We might be against 1010 or AJ but other than that this is an unnecessary pre flop gamble with player behind us.

My point is that if you are behind or flipping for your tournament life on more that half of the range you put the other player on then play it safe. There is a reason PROs last way longer than normal players in big tournaments they play it safe and choose the spots based on gain and loss.

 

[Legend5555]

It’s JJ though and has a decent chance of flopping overpair and being good, if it’s monotone the J is good card blocking flushes and can call down; set mining math not so applicable.

Didn't mean it in the absolute. Just that if this opponent is perceived as very tight, then it's something to think about.

 

[MrSonOfABeech]

Why flat? Lots of players behind you, you're begging for a squeeze with a hand that's tough to play. That many players behind plus the limp to play against, 3bet is better. Otherwise you're underrepped and calling here if I don't have some kind of read on UTG.

Might not change the outcome of the hand, how was UTG playing? Did he mean this as a squeeze or was he just a donkey that saw pretty cards?

UTG was playing pretty reckless to be honest. The UTG limp was standard for him, as he was limping a wide range of hands and going crazy with one pair post flop.

 

[MrSonOfABeech]

Awesome user name, btw.

Setting aside the limp, I don't hate your second action how it played out. You perceived the CO as being the likely strength in the hand and UTG as a bit of a loose cannon, so given the CO folded before it got back to you, you find yourself heads up with a strong hand and an opponent that could easily be making a move. So I understand the call off here. There is no doubt CO threw away a better hand than villain at least, I would doubt he threw away QQ+, though.

But if your read is cutoff is snug and has raised about 7BB over a limper, I think it's a raise or fold situation. Even in the best case scenario here, you hemmed and hawed about a raise (which would have bene to at least 15BB) so you called, but then put yourself in a position call off your last 50ish BB in a spot where you sometimes will be a 2-1 favorite in the best case, but sometimes even money or 4-1 against.

I think if you are going to play this hand, I would 3-bet this. I really don't think I would have a flatting range at all against a 7BB raise on the button.

If UTG still ships it, and CO folds, then you have an easy call. If you get the opposite action, UTG folds and CO ships it, then you have an easy fold. The limp (and underrepresentation justification) clouded this hand.

You had a bad runout for sure, but when the money went in, it was about the best case scenario for you after the decision to flat with JJ. But the best case scenario is going to be rare.

Personally, even if my read is CO is tight, I'm going to probably 3-bet this to 15-20BB, planning to fold if CO goes with it. If he's tight, he may fold some 50-50 spots here, he may call with Ax and give up on missed flop which would be easy to play given we have position. If he 4-bets pre, I will give him credit for QQ+ and fold. Even if he does this with AK, I can live with letting him earn this one. But I also like having a little something in my 3-bet range that I am willing to fold just to be less predictable. I'm going with QQ+ and AKs even against a tight Cutoff for sure, I can have JJ as a 3-bet-fold hand.

And then if I take this 3-bet line, then I am probably going with UTG if he rips it (which he may be less likely to do seeing we as hero have commit 15 BB to this pot) unless CO has something to call with, then again I have an easy fold.

All that said, if you are uncomfortable raising JJ over a 7BB sizing from cutoff, then you probably are better off just folding then. The rest of the hand went well for you this time (aside from the runout obviously), but more often than not, you will put yourself in a tough spot, and often even folding pre when CO has the goods anyway, which I assume is what you were concerned about when you decided not to raise in the first place.

Thank you for the detailed response. I appreciate the feedback.

CO said following the hand, "I would've had you too. I had A9." Definitely not what I put him on for a near 8x raise pre.

 

[MrSonOfABeech]

So with the 7.67 bb raise, there is ~11bb in the middle. We have 57bb. Any 3bet basically commits us, and we don't really want to incentivize CO to call by min clicking to like 50k when we will only have 120k behind. Honestly, unless you think the CO is some MASSIVE nitt who would only do this with QQ-AA, I think you just rip it. The pot is already almost 20% of your stack. The raise is too big to set mine. Calling invites others in. If you can get CO to fold AQ, KQ, then it's a massive win for you.

So yeah. Seems silly, but so is the 7.67x raise. I say jam pre.

This I like. If I had my time back, I would've just ripped it in and taken my chances vs the near 8x open. Gotta think utg finds a fold with his AJh and CO is surely folding his A9 (which he said he had after the hand was over).

 

[JustinInMN]

CO said following the hand, "I would've had you too. I had A9." Definitely not what I put him on for a near 8x raise pre.

Guess that's an example of not getting too much into reads.

 

[ngmcs8203]

CO said following the hand, "I would've had you too. I had A9." Definitely not what I put him on for a near 8x raise pre.

What a strange open, let alone one that he likely folds if you rip it.