PAHWM JJ from UTG 6 max .05/.1 pokerbros (1 Viewer)

[perfectjawnz]

-raising as a bluff on the turn is just not something people do very often. Good players know this and will not think "must be a bluff". Over pot bluffs are mostly a river thing.

What are we left with? A sneaky KK (very doubtful) that beats us and some weird 5x hands that is almost as unlikely.

I agree with the first 3 points, I will say raising as a "semi" bluff OTT is probably the most bluffed street on wet/ draw heavy boards. if the texture calls for it, turn overbets into river jams can make sense.

Think AT93 2 toned UTG vs BB SRP, standard utg cbet otf. Can overbet with FD, SD, sets, AT and BB should have enough that connects with the board (2pair, middle sets, crazy number of straight draws and middling flushes).

 

[Coyote]

not all micro stakes players are bad players. Not all high stakes players are good players. money on the table should have no bearing on the game being played.

Yeah, but it actually does have bearing. In micro stakes, people wont' fold till the river, where they 'll suck out on you. You 'd better terrorise them before that, if you already hold something (no wishful semi-bluffs).
Bluffs are next to impossible.

People going all-in on any street mean it 90% of the time (even if, being very weak as players, they think that AQ off is the nuts pre-flop)

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah, but it actually does have bearing. In micro stakes, people wont' fold till the river, where they 'll suck out on you. You 'd better terrorise them before that, if you already hold something (no wishful semi-bluffs).
Bluffs are next to impossible.

This is way more myth than fact in my experience. There absolutely are nitty micro games, there absolutely are loose games at high stakes. Maybe there are tendencies, but it's never been close to 100% true and just another assumption to be reviewed whenever in a new game.

 

[Coyote]

This is way more myth than fact in my experience. There absolutely are nitty micro games, there absolutely are loose games at high stakes. Maybe there are tendencies, but it's never been close to 100% true and just another assumption to be reviewed whenever in a new game.

Nothing is 100% valid, but I 've regretted bitterly to not have bet strongly my strong hands in micro

 

[JMC9389]

The river is the time to bomb it and go for a pot sized bet or more, especially if it comes out clean and it makes it look like hero missed their draws and is trying to buy it. Not on this turn card.

 

[JustinInMN]

Nothing is 100% valid, but I 've regretted bitterly to not have bet strongly my strong hands in micro

Well games of all stakes are open to that sort of regret. You betting strategy should always be based on how loose or tight your opponents are. That's something you should always observe in the game regardless of the stake. If you just let the blind levels be your only indicator, you are cheating yourself out of true observation.

 

[JustinInMN]

The river is the time to bomb it and go for a pot sized bet or more, especially if it comes out clean and it makes it look like hero missed their draws and is trying to buy it. Not on this turn card.

Agreed, but hero would be probably betting twice pot on the river if the turn gets checked around. So I prefer hero bet something here. If villains fold, there just probably weren't any good cards available to them on the river anyway.

 

[Ben8257]

It's time to run in the other room and say "honey I caught a freaking monster with Jacks (which never happens) but I'm only playing micro baby... go ahead and round up the kiddos cause we are headed to McDonalds and going wild on that dollar menu love, let me just get this last $2 bet in here, hopefully these fools catch on the river and we can even splurge for a Mcflurry!"

I agree a stronger bet here, a $1.50 pot, let's get $2 in there and hope 1 comes along for the trap... ones going to run away anyways on that paired board right?

 

[grebe]

Hero bets $1 trying to lay a good price to the drawing hands that will now NOT be drawing to the nuts. Of course, it also makes an easy call for anybody with a K, or Dogs be willing, any weird-ass hand that has a 5 in it.

CO folds, BTN calls.

Pot is now $4.50

River:

Hero?

 

[Ben8257]

Ohh man, here comes the ole Online "totally random" Royal. Personally I bet pot, hopefully he caught his Flush but not THAT flush, I'm dying on this boat if he re pops it! He has shown zero aggression and we are 5th nut at this point... no way he has quads or Kings Full, if he caught one of the two straight flushes "good hand sir" and move on. Lol

At the very worse outcome you can send this to the guy that made the "how to play Jacks" video, if you just ran into a Royal. Haha

 

[grebe]

Ohh man, here comes the ole Online "totally random" Royal. Personally I bet pot, hopefully he caught his Flush but not THAT flush, I'm dying on this boat if he re pops it! He has shown zero aggression and we are 5th nut at this point... no way he has quads or Kings Full, if he caught one of the two straight flushes "good hand sir" and move on. Lol

At the very worse outcome you can send this to the guy that made the "how to play Jacks" video, if you just ran into a Royal. Haha

I rarely post "those" hand histories....the only one I can think of was when my 3333 lost to JJJJ and I won $4k for the bad beat. Those are coolers and there is nothing to learn from them.

All can stand down, we are not up against that hand. TBH, I didn't even notice the royal was out there until I looked at the hand a second time.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hmm, so if my math is right, hero still has $10.05 or so behind here. Way too much to just shove in a $4.50 pot. Since we dodged kings, we do need to go full speed a head. I hate checking because villain has a lot of check-back with showdown value that's less than a straight or a flush for sure. If we play for the check raise, pretty much the only way that works in our favor is if villain has a straight or a flush and will bet it into a paired board and call a raise.

I dislike shoving for another reason. This is the one sizing that could get villain to lay down a straight or a flush, which is a disaster with a hand this strong. I think we just have to bet something like $2.50-$3. We will probably get called by Kx a lot and we might induce a shove from a 5x or better. If villain folds he folds.

But I do think if hero had gone for larger sizing on the flop and turn, we could justify going for a lot more value here on the river.

 

[grebe]

Hmm, so if my math is right, hero still has $10.05 or so behind here. Way too much to just shove in a $4.50 pot. Since we dodged kings, we do need to go full speed a head. I hate checking because villain has a lot of check-back with showdown value that's less than a straight or a flush for sure. If we play for the check raise, pretty much the only way that works in our favor is if villain has a straight or a flush and will bet it into a paired board and call a raise.

I dislike shoving for another reason. This is the one sizing that could get villain to lay down a straight or a flush, which is a disaster with a hand this strong. I think we just have to bet something like $2.50-$3. We will probably get called by Kx a lot and we might induce a shove from a 5x or better. If villain folds he folds.

But I do think if hero had gone for larger sizing on the flop and turn, we could justify going for a lot more value here on the river.

This is a very good assessment of the hand, I think.

 

[JMC9389]

Hmm, so if my math is right, hero still has $10.05 or so behind here. Way too much to just shove in a $4.50 pot. Since we dodged kings, we do need to go full speed a head. I hate checking because villain has a lot of check-back with showdown value that's less than a straight or a flush for sure. If we play for the check raise, pretty much the only way that works in our favor is if villain has a straight or a flush and will bet it into a paired board and call a raise.

I dislike shoving for another reason. This is the one sizing that could get villain to lay down a straight or a flush, which is a disaster with a hand this strong. I think we just have to bet something like $2.50-$3. We will probably get called by Kx a lot and we might induce a shove from a 5x or better. If villain folds he folds.

But I do think if hero had gone for larger sizing on the flop and turn, we could justify going for a lot more value here on the river.

Totally agree with this. Value betting this will get the highest likelihood for a call than a shove. A clean river and overbet would have put villain in the blender and may have gotten a curious call from a nonbeliever with two pair or AK.

The flush coming in here actually kills action a bit. I'd bet $2.50 to $3 hoping to get value from Ax of spades.

 

[perfectjawnz]

I actually disagree with betting here. Think of your range that arrives at this spot - I think it's a lot of KX and not very many strong hands.

OTT, I feel like you'd be betting way more polar with draws vs another 1/3 pot cbet.

When the flush and straight completing card arrives, I think checking nearly your entire range here makes a lot of sense, and hoping that V has a straight or a flush. I don't think most KX is calling for 3 streets on this card, but by going for the x/r, you can squeeze out more value of straights that can't fold, or the nut flush that should be calling. It's also the only real way I can see of GII, unless V raises if you bet. It also helps balance your x range here.

The only KX that should really be calling if you bet is AK, or KQ blocking the straight (and hopefully the flush). Atleast that's the only KX I'd find a call with *maybe*, dependent on V. But this is an SRP, so AK should not be in range, and it's unlikely that KQ is in range.

 

[grebe]

I actually disagree with betting here. Think of your range that arrives at this spot - I think it's a lot of KX and not very many strong hands.

OTT, I feel like you'd be betting way more polar with draws vs another 1/3 pot cbet.

When the flush and straight completing card arrives, I think checking nearly your entire range here makes a lot of sense, and hoping that V has a straight or a flush. I don't think most KX is calling for 3 streets on this card, but by going for the x/r, you can squeeze out more value of straights that can't fold, or the nut flush that should be calling. It's also the only real way I can see of GII, unless V raises if you bet. It also helps balance your x range here.

The only KX that should really be calling if you bet is AK, or KQ blocking the straight (and hopefully the flush). Atleast that's the only KX I'd find a call with *maybe*, dependent on V. But this is an SRP, so AK should not be in range, and it's unlikely that KQ is in range.

I agree with almost all of this...the only * is that KQ is not usually 3 bet in my experience at these stakes...and probably should not see much 3 betting against an UTG raise pre. Even my range is just too strong here to be 3 betting KQ, and I am far from the tightest at these tables, since I only play 1 table at a time and the guys playing 3+ tables are just uber nits.

Actually would not be surprised to see a lot of AK here. Many players are scared shitless of the old "Anna Kournikova"....looks good, never wins so they play it passively.

So far what I have picked up on this thread so far is that I probably could have bet slightly more on flop and turn to build up a pot with a smaller SPR to make stacks a little more relevant on a straight river bet. Out of position though, it's hard to gauge that.

 

[grebe]

We can go ahead and wrap this up this evening...

Pot is sitting at $4.50

Hero feels like this is a card from the Dogs of poker, he played the turn to allow the draws to come in and this brings ALL the draws home. Nervous it will go check/check....he clicks the check button anyways.

BTN bets 2.30.

Back to HERO....

 

[perfectjawnz]

What stake is this? I see AK/KQ 3bet all the time, even vs UTG opens at 10NL on ACR. It'd really blow my mind if BU isn't 3betting AKo/KQo vs two Villains while he's IP. AK/KQs maybe makes a little more sense to flat since it plays better Multiway, but still.

 

[perfectjawnz]

We can go ahead and wrap this up this evening...

Pot is sitting at $4.50

Hero feels like this is a card from the Dogs of poker, he played the turn to allow the draws to come in and this brings ALL the draws home. Nervous it will go check/check....he clicks the check button anyways.

BTN bets 2.30.

Back to HERO....

you already know, there's only one option here

 

[grebe]

What stake is this? I see AK/KQ 3bet all the time, even vs UTG opens at 10NL on ACR. It'd really blow my mind if BU isn't 3betting AKo/KQo vs two Villains while he's IP. AK/KQs maybe makes a little more sense to flat since it plays better Multiway, but still.

PAHWM JJ from UTG 6 max .05/.1 pokerbros​

 

[perfectjawnz]

oh yeah I can totally read guys, just ignore me

but still, I'm pretty surprised if AK/KQ shows up here consistently.

 

[grebe]

oh yeah I can totally read guys, just ignore me

but still, I'm pretty surprised if AK/KQ shows up here consistently.

When I see a slow played AK Im still like "oh shit!" but then I remember not everyone online is decent.

 

[JustinInMN]

We can go ahead and wrap this up this evening...

Pot is sitting at $4.50

Hero feels like this is a card from the Dogs of poker, he played the turn to allow the draws to come in and this brings ALL the draws home. Nervous it will go check/check....he clicks the check button anyways.

BTN bets 2.30.

Back to HERO....

Well while I opposed the check, it does appear you have found yourself in the one situation where it helps you, obviously you are going to shove over this size.

There is no point in flatting, either villain is going to make a laydown or not.

All that said, if villain will be laying down a straight or flush to the shove, then hero is probably no more better off than having bet it himself.

Hero is only beat by KK, 55 and As-Qs, that's not going to happen nearly enough to justify flatting. Get the value from the villain flush.

 

[grebe]

Well while I opposed the check, it does appear you have found yourself in the one situation where it helps you, obviously you are going to shove over this size.

There is no point in flatting, either villain is going to make a laydown or not.

All that said, if villain will be laying down a straight or flush to the shove, then hero is probably no more better off than having bet it himself.

Hero is only beat by KK, 55 and As-Qs, that's not going to happen nearly enough to justify flatting. Get the value from the villain flush.

Definitely not flatting, but interested to see if anybody bets an amount not all in here. Any point? Min click where straight knows he's beat but has to call?
If you are button, what do you do with a flush if you get jammed on here? He made a very small value bet, would you check/fold? Not sure I would, and that's probably a leak for me.

 

[perfectjawnz]

Well while I opposed the check, it does appear you have found yourself in the one situation where it helps you, obviously you are going to shove over this size.

There is no point in flatting, either villain is going to make a laydown or not.

All that said, if villain will be laying down a straight or flush to the shove, then hero is probably no more better off than having bet it himself.

Hero is only beat by KK, 55 and As-Qs, that's not going to happen nearly enough to justify flatting. Get the value from the villain flush.

I'm curious - why do you oppose the check? What other hands are betting for 3 streets here, besides KK/JJ/55? Although 55 may size up OTT, unblocking KX, JX, SDs and FDs.

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm curious - why do you oppose the check? What other hands are betting for 3 streets here, besides KK/JJ/55? Although 55 may size up OTT, unblocking KX, JX, SDs and FDs.

Because I think villain has too much medium value he could just check behind. It feels like leaving too many possible calls on the table. Maybe from a GTO standpoint this is exploitive, if your point is hero can't be betting 3-streets with with much else aside from a straight or better. But if I don't think villain is taking GTO into consideriation, I am going to bet to induce a raise or at the very least collect a crying call.

If I were to justify a bet from a GTO understanding, I would consider JJ is the second highest hand in hero's range. KK and JJ account for 6 combos in hero's range so if we can come up with 1-2 combos of bluffs given a shove will lay about 3:1 (edit for correction), I think we pass as betting on balance. My preferred bluff candidates would be AQ or QT with one spade to at least partially block the possibility villain drew to a flush.

So I do admit, I am looking at this exploitively . But I am not worried about that unless villain is aware enough of GTO play that he would figure out that 3 streets of value here is only strength.

 

[JustinInMN]

Definitely not flatting, but interested to see if anybody bets an amount not all in here. Any point? Min click where straight knows he's beat but has to call?
If you are button, what do you do with a flush if you get jammed on here? He made a very small value bet, would you check/fold? Not sure I would, and that's probably a leak for me.

Villain might fold, but then that just underscores the point that leading at the river was at least an equally good play. If you click it back instead of shoving, you are laying him 2.30 to win 11.40 (I think, just doing this in my head) where as if you shove, I think it's something like 8.50 to win 17.00 or so. Can he lay a flush down at 3:1 and not at 5:1? Is that worth leaving 60 BB on the table? My instinct is no.

 

[perfectjawnz]

Because I think villain has too much medium value he could just check behind. It feels like leaving too many possible calls on the table. Maybe from a GTO standpoint this is exploitive, if your point is hero can't be betting 3-streets with with much else aside from a straight or better. But if I don't think villain is taking GTO into consideriation, I am going to bet to induce a raise or at the very least collect a crying call.

If I were to justify a bet from a GTO understanding, I would consider JJ is the second highest hand in hero's range. KK and JJ account for 6 combos in hero's range so if we can come up with 6 combos of bluffs, I think we pass as betting on balance. My preferred bluff candidates would be AQ or QT with one spade to at least partially block the possibility villain drew to a flush.

So I do admit, I am looking at this expletively. But I am not worried about that unless villain is aware enough of GTO play that he would figure out that 3 streets of value here is only strength.

KK, JJ, AQss are probably the 7 hands that make up the true value portion of the range, maybe low frequency 55, so I agree with you there.

But I don't think you have 6-10 combos of bluffs that take this line - does AQ/QTsx really only want to bet 1/3 pot OTT? I feel like those hands either want to check and hopefully see a free card, or bet polar and fire OTR if they hit or miss. The 1/3 sizing OTT really seems only like boats or KX bad kicker to me. And KX bad kicker doesn't want to bet large OTR when the wettest of all cards comes in.

What kinds of hands are you calling with in BU shoes? 3 streets of betting from an OOP V, on a board that smashes the UTG range? Hero has the only royal flush, all the boats, and a higher portion of range that's the Nut flush. It seems like it's definitely a -EV call from BU to call anything that's not a straight or better, which will bet when checked to anyways.

Plus, by checking, you give the Villain the chance to bluff.

 

[Legend5555]

What stake is this? I see AK/KQ 3bet all the time, even vs UTG opens at 10NL on ACR. It'd really blow my mind if BU isn't 3betting AKo/KQo vs two Villains while he's IP. AK/KQs maybe makes a little more sense to flat since it plays better Multiway, but still.

This is on PokerBros, people ain't 3 betting like they do on ACR or Ignition.

 

[Legend5555]

Now that I've actually looked at this...

I'd actually be betting somewhat large on all streets (maybe a little less on turn). There are SOOOOO many hands that will call. You unblock TP, and there are Broadway draws, and a flush draw. No K is ever folding to pretty much any size on flop and turn. Maybe bet less on turn so as not to scare away a draw though. But I want to make sure I can comfortably jam river here.

Now in theory, we are 6 handed and we can have all the nut hands as I imagine we still raise 55 pre 6 handed. Plus we didn't get 3 bet, so opponents basically can't have JJ, KK, or AK. Best they can have is 55. But we can have all those hands. They can have a lot of TP worse kicker, all the broadways and lots of flush draws. We have clear nut advantage and probably range advantage too. And with draws out there that will call, go large.

We have a lot of hands that will want to check OOP multiway like every under pair and Broadway Aces with no spade. But we will want to bloat with our big draws and two pair+. What we want to do with AK and KQ is the more interesting question. I've mixed in this spot with those as it's good to have strong TP in your checking range here. You get a clean turn and you can bet bet and get called by a lot of worse hands.