PAHWM JJ from UTG 6 max .05/.1 pokerbros (1 Viewer)

[grebe]

This hand is from this morning on Pokerbros, and is part of my long term attempt to spin up a dollar. I was trying to play short stacks, but was getting frustrated because I kept missing opportunities to semi bluff and I was running bad. I am in to the game for pretty much all my remaining roll at $20. Things are not going my way.

I am UTG with stack is currently 11.80. I open to my standard 3X (.30)

CO calls ($6 stack size)
BTN calls ($19 stack size)
blinds fold.

Of course, we would like to see folds to the blinds and a call from there, but it is what it is. We will be out of position for the duration. I don't see anything to do different here, so here's the flop:



Action on Hero.

 

[dinosaur]

All in. No need to chance another spade since you’ve been having a bad run anyway. Just take your pot and be happy. Jacks are the devil anyhow.

Jk. Cbet .50? Iono. Charge the flush draw. Hopefully someone has top pair.

Edit. Maybe charge more. .80.

 

[Burke]

Pot

 

[JMC9389]

Bet 3/4 pot

 

[grebe]

Pot

Bet 3/4 pot

Why? What do you do with AQs here? how about AKo? 88? QQ? Do you bet this much hot/cold, or do you bet this much with all your range? These are relatively big bets into 2 opponents out of position is why I ask. I mean sure, this specific hand is awesome but rarely do we get it this good.

 

[JMC9389]

Why? What do you do with AQs here? how about AKo? 88? QQ? Do you bet this much hot/cold, or do you bet this much with all your range? These are relatively big bets into 2 opponents out of position is why I ask. I mean sure, this specific hand is awesome but rarely do we get it this good.

You said it yourself. You're out of position with a very wet board that is draw heavy that a lot of those that called in position could have a piece of. In this situation I would want to charge the draws to see more cards. Betting large and taking it down on the flop is a good result all things considered.

Hero is ahead most of the time on the flop but there are a lot of cards that I'd hate to see on the turn and river unless they pair the board. Any ace, queen, or ten and any spade that doesn't pair.

As far as what I'm doing with hands like AQ spades, QQ, AK, etc, it depends on the cast of characters and context. If we're playing cash deep stacked, I would tend to bet those hands a bit more for value, but shorter stacked or in a tournament with rebuys, I'm trying to get as much in as possible with any pat hand that can get cracked with the intent to play for stacks to a raise.

 

[Burke]

OK, my honest answer is that it's hard for me to evaluate microstakes like this. I don't have the discipline/patience. I just can't get excited about not at least putting in a dollar here. And I know that is not how to evaluate a strategy thread.

To try to answer more than that....no I am definitely not making this bet with all of my range (so my answer is unbalanced). I'm falling in the camp that players at these low of stakes are not paying attention to that level of detail regarding bet sizing. That's probably incorrect online. In my experience with poor live game players you are getting a call on the flop from any two spades, Q10off, and any top pair or better really. I think you can extract a lot of value with a relatively large bet. I'm ok showing the strength of my hand in an attempt to build a sizable pot where I can get my whole stack in reasonably.

 

[grebe]

You said it yourself. You're out of position with a very wet board that is draw heavy that a lot of those that called in position could have a piece of. In this situation I would want to charge the draws to see more cards. Betting large and taking it down on the flop is a good result all things considered.

I respect this answer

As far as what I'm doing with hands like AQ spades, QQ, AK, etc, it depends on the cast of characters and context. If we're playing cash deep stacked, I would tend to bet those hands a bit more for value, but shorter stacked or in a tournament with rebuys, I'm trying to get as much in as possible with any pat hand that can get cracked with the intent to play for stacks to a raise.

Same flop and villains, different starting hands. I'm asking if you are betting here with the nuts (KK is definitely not out there), are you betting other hands you show up with here the same? Are you balanced or not? It's ok either way, I'm just asking what others would do.

 

[grebe]

OK, my honest answer is that it's hard for me to evaluate microstakes like this. I don't have the discipline/patience. I just can't get excited about not at least putting in a dollar here. And I know that is not how to evaluate a strategy thread.

Yeah, you gotta look in big blinds. A more interesting way to look at this is I have invested in running up 20 bucks from a single dollar on a quest to get to a substantial amount to cash out. Am I willing to tank this because "it's just a buck... Or twenty"? Or finish the quest? I could easily reload for a few hundred, but it defeats the purpose.

To try to answer more than that....no I am definitely not making this bet with all of my range (so my answer is unbalanced). I'm falling in the camp that players at these low of stakes are not paying attention to that level of detail regarding bet sizing. That's probably incorrect online. In my experience with poor live game players you are getting a call on the flop from any two spades, Q10off, and any top pair or better really. I think you can extract a lot of value with a relatively large bet. I'm ok showing the strength of my hand in an attempt to build a sizable pot where I can get my whole stack in reasonably.

Some online take micro stakes very seriously, studying and even multi tabling. Some are ok, and few are terrible. It's just too easy to lose a bunch of money really fast online, and the worst players just don't stick around very long. It's not the same as even a 1/2 game live, where people are throwing money away. You have to assume that they are at least somewhat competent until they show you otherwise.

Not saying you can't be unbalanced here, it's just harder to get away with it than live.

 

[krafticus]

I'd bet 1/4 pot with this hand. Sure there are some draws, but most micro-stakes players aren't really following the math anyway. You want to keep all Kx & 5x in, along with the draws. If you are lucky, you'll be up against an AK/KQ type hand, or even 5xss. Keep them paying as long as possible. If the turn gets really ugly, re-evaluate.

 

[bernielomax]

At these stakes, I am value betting the flop, turn and river regardless of what comes out.

If I bet on the flop it may also look like I am building the pot with a flush draw.

If the river gets really messy and I get raised, I would re-evaluate.

 

[JMC9389]

At these stakes, I am value betting the flop, turn and river regardless of what comes out.

If I bet on the flop it may also look like I am building the pot with a flush draw.

If the river gets really messy and I get raised, I would re-evaluate.

Right, but how often exactly is hero doing this? Maybe with one exact hand. AK suited. And that's not it since the king of spades is out there. Even 6 handed, AQ suited and Ax suited are pretty loose open raises from UTG.

For the hand as is and as played, a 3x open is fine assuming this is hero's standard.

Hero even has range advantage given the action and flop, but two pairs and flush draws are very much in play for the two villains in the hand. The flop smacks the hero's range and actual hand, but with two to the straight and flush on the board and with hero out of position, I'm trying to get as much money in as possible and making the draws pay a premium before something comes out that hero won't like to see, and there's a lot of such cards.

 

[grebe]

At these stakes, I am value betting the flop, turn and river regardless of what comes out.

If I bet on the flop it may also look like I am building the pot with a flush draw.

If the river gets really messy and I get raised, I would re-evaluate.

Welcome to the forums! I haven't seen your name yet, glad you posted.

What sizing you like on the flop here?

 

[grebe]

Right, but how often exactly is hero doing this? Maybe with one exact hand. AK suited. And that's not it since the king of spades is out there. Even 6 handed, AQ suited and Ax suited are pretty loose open raises from UTG.

AQs is solidly in my opening range in 6 Max utg. ATs, and A5-A2s would all be in there. I'm tighter full ring, obviously.

For the hand as is and as played, a 3x open is fine assuming this is hero's standard.

Online, this is standard and I don't deviate unless I have a strong reason to. Very rare to open anything else. Live is a whole different ball of wax.

 

[perfectjawnz]

As I see it, there are two options here: range bet small (1/4pot) for your entire range, or size up to ~70% and bet a polarized range (2pair+, SDs, FDs and check TP/MP). Personally, I'd prefer a small range bet here, just to try and control the pot a little.

If you do go the polarized route, I will say there's some merit to x/r with this hand and 55, not blocking TP.

Also, for those of you who are saying "microstakes players don't study", that's definitely not true. I'm playing 5 or 10NL online, and have already bought GTO+, use all free 10 study spots in GTOWizard everyday, and try to study a few hours a week. That's not to say there aren't fish in these pools, cuz there certainly are, but not everybody is terrible at micros.

 

[bernielomax]

Welcome to the forums! I haven't seen your name yet, glad you posted.

What sizing you like on the flop here?

I would just bet the pot. Everyone tries to get fancy, but in micro-stakes and low stakes I think the best play is to just bet your hand when you have it. Sure, you will get coolered from time to time, but in the long run it should play out in your favor.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[grebe]

Moving forward...

I opt to bet on the smaller side, as I would with AK, flush and straight draws, KQ, KJ.
I bet .42 into a pot of 1.25... So about 1/3 pot.
CO and BTN call, the BB folds.

The turn is a glorious magical . See picture for details.

Action on hero.

 

[shorticus]

Hero is ahead most of the time on the flop

Correction: Hero is ahead 100% of the time here. KK should never be flatting a raise in position with a PFR ahead.

 

[JMC9389]

As played, I like another bet of 1/3 to 1/2 pot to give some rope to the draws, pairs, and two pairs. Check raising doesn't make any sense here but you're missing value by not betting.

 

[krafticus]

As played, I like another bet of 1/3 to 1/2 pot to give some rope to the draws, pairs, and two pairs. Check raising doesn't make any sense here but you're missing value by not betting.

100% this. Lets give all of those straight and flush draws a nice price to catch up

 

[dinosaur]

Again. All in. I mean, you’re a girl? No brainer. No one believes girls online anyway. You’re definitely getting paid off.

Or your can do what jmc says. Whatevs.

 

[grebe]

Again. All in. I mean, you’re a girl? No brainer. No one believes girls online anyway. You’re definitely getting paid off.

I'm a woman, not a girl.

I'm actually a dude, but if some people are:
a) dumb enough to believe women are pre disposed too being worse at cards then men
b) dumb enough to believe my avatar is an accurate portrayal of me
Then who am I too stop them?

Also a shove would be a reverse punt here. I think I would rather open fold than shove, because somebody could have quads, right?

 

[JustinInMN]

I am definitely a fan of going for bigger sizing to compensate for being out of position in general, not just with monsters, but with medium strength hands that I would bet from here as well (say your Kx, maybe QQ, maybe some better Jx) I think at least 2/3 pot is warranted here. I really wouldn't mind going for more. Since we see you have a monster with some vulnerability, I think you want to overprice the spade draws and try to get raised by Kx so you can play for stacks here as a heavy favorite. The downside to sets is they are tough to lay down (and they should be) when scare cards come. But again, betting stiffly from OOP will help you sort out what's what on future streets.

 

[JustinInMN]

And now I just saw this .

I opt to bet on the smaller side, as I would with AK, flush and straight draws, KQ, KJ.
I bet .42 into a pot of 1.25... So about 1/3 pot.
CO and BTN call, the BB folds.

The turn is a glorious magical . See picture for details.

Action on hero.

Woo hoo, but I think you want to keep betting here. Now you don't have to protect yourself from straight draws and flush draws obviously, but the street to collect from them is now, they will probably miss and not call a river bet. And given the small pot bet sizing, it wouldn't shock me to see a 65 or a 54 out there.

You're still trying to play for stacks, you best bet to achieve that is to bet now. I would go for $2 here. If you just get called, hope the villains catch anything "helpful" except for a K. (And possibly a 5.) You will be leaving yourself a [maybe slightly over] pot-sized shove on the river with this sizing.

 

[bernielomax]

In micro stakes I would over bet in this situation to the tune of $3.00 or $3.50.

An over bet accomplishes two things:

1.) It allows you to get max value for a hand that fishy opponent can’t fold.

2.) To a player with any skill level, it looks like your trying to buy the pot.

 

[grebe]

In micro stakes I would over bet in this situation to the tune of $3.00 or $3.50.

An over bet accomplishes two things:

1.) It allows you to get max value for a hand that fishy opponent can’t fold.

2.) To a player with any skill level, it looks like your trying to buy the pot.

I strongly disagree with this.
-you are very likely to fold out many hands willing to pay off multiple streets, specifically any hand a K.
-you are pricing out the draws, which we want our opponents to have... In fact we WANT then to get there. Now is the time to price them in.
-hands with an A that would call another street in "fuck it" mode...a common thing in micros... Now you are telling them to pay attention.
-raising as a bluff on the turn is just not something people do very often. Good players know this and will not think "must be a bluff". Over pot bluffs are mostly a river thing.

What are we left with? A sneaky KK (very doubtful) that beats us and some weird 5x hands that is almost as unlikely.

 

[dinosaur]

I'm a woman, not a girl.

I'm actually a dude, but if some people are:
a) dumb enough to believe women are pre disposed too being worse at cards then men
b) dumb enough to believe my avatar is an accurate portrayal of me
Then who am I too stop them?

Also a shove would be a reverse punt here. I think I would rather open fold than shove, because somebody could have quads, right?

It IS true. There are no girls on the internet.

 

[perfectjawnz]

Now this is an interesting spot. Obviously, we have the nuts here, given KK shouldn't be in either V range. Because it's multiway and we're OOP, I'm going to say "fuck playing balanced" and go for another small cbet of 1/3pot or so. We want KX, straight/flush draws to continue, and by betting 1/3, it may look like we have something like KX bad kicker trying to see a cheap showdown and incentivize a raise. If this was HU, I'd be much more inclined to range check here. (Yes, this is backwards, I know you should be checking more multiway, fuck it we ball)

edit: we have basically the nuts, if either V has 55, its just a cooler

 

[bernielomax]

I strongly disagree with this.
-you are very likely to fold out many hands willing to pay off multiple streets, specifically any hand a K.
-you are pricing out the draws, which we want our opponents to have... In fact we WANT then to get there. Now is the time to price them in.
-hands with an A that would call another street in "fuck it" mode...a common thing in micros... Now you are telling them to pay attention.
-raising as a bluff on the turn is just not something people do very often. Good players know this and will not think "must be a bluff". Over pot bluffs are mostly a river thing.

What are we left with? A sneaky KK (very doubtful) that beats us and some weird 5x hands that is almost as unlikely.

Sounds good. Best of luck

 

[krafticus]

not all micro stakes players are bad players. Not all high stakes players are good players. money on the table should have no bearing on the game being played.