PAHWM: JJ on a monotone board (2 Viewers)

OfficerLovejoy

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Good day my fellow poker aficionados,

I've been to the casino in Aachen, germany yesterday and wrote down several hands for later discussions with way better players than I am (thanks @Eriks , @JackDeRke and everyone else that shares his thoughts on my weirdly played hands). I do have one particular hand I'd like to open for general discussion here.

To set the scene -
I've been playing for about 5 hours, bought in for €400 and am up to around €800 in a €2/4, €1000 max buyin game.
My table just broke and I took the seat to the left of a guy who I know as a pro/very good young player. This guy obviously understands modern gto concepts and has been playing solid and agressive. I know him because he's been at my former table for a few hours before he switched. He's gonna be one of the two villains in this hand.

Everyone else is unknown but seems to be limpy and splashy from the three hands I witnessed from this table

So play along with me:

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with :jh::jc:
 
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I raise to 30.
I think the only decision here is the raise size.
My standard open is to 3x +1x per limper which would be €32.
This table seems to be very call happy so a bigger size might prevent this going to the flop 5 ways. I don't mind going €40 here but in the moment I settled on a more standard size of €34.

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with :jh::jc:
hero raises to €34
HJ calls
CO calls
SB calls
UTG+1 says "well, I guess I have to now." and calls

pot is €182
flop comes:
:7s::6s::4s:
SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Action is on hero
 
4 way pot & the flop is monotone with no flush draw that hit at least one of the callers’ range

I will check here, if CO bet and the UTG+1 plus SB both call or check raise I will fold JJ here

If CO bet and the other fold to us, we can call as long as it’s a reasonable bet.

If CO check, we get to see a free card with some pot control
 
First off, JJ is one of my least favorote hands, so I typically play fairly conservative.

Preflop, I would raise 5x. I want to get small pairs out and get a read on whether or not the villian/s have two big overs. IMHO, a 3x raise just brings in everybody with a small pocket pair and large overs. They just want to see a flop for cheap, and get away cheap if they miss.

With that many people to the flop, this board would SUCK IMO. I would make a 50% pot sized continuation, and then proceed with EXTREME caution if you get a call. I lost count of how many times a flopped set has screwed me over in this position.
 
When I can’t decide what to do I tell myself we must be supposed to mix :)

On the one hand, we need protection from over cards, especially those with one spade, maybe random 56s, A5s that are open ended. On the other hand we could already be dead (or extremely thin) to sets, two pair (I’d definitely put 76s in UTG+1 limping range) or flushes.

OOP here I think I check/call if not too much money goes in the pot. Trouble is the only card I want to come out is :jd:
 
Are we covered by SB, HJ and CO as well or are they some of those shorter stacks?

Either way, we’re 100bbs effective at the most with the straddle on, so I’m not really a fan of bet/folding. I’m also not a huge fan of bet/calling with 5 players in there. Although I guess it makes a difference who’s doing the shipping over our hypothetical bet.

For those reasons I would start with a check.
 
Are we covered by SB, HJ and CO as well or are they some of those shorter stacks?

Either way, we’re 100bbs effective at the most with the straddle on, so I’m not really a fan of bet/folding. I’m also not a huge fan of bet/calling with 5 players in there. Although I guess it makes a difference who’s doing the shipping over our hypothetical bet.

For those reasons I would start with a check.
SB is sitting on around 600
HJ was pretty short, 200 maybe
CO might've had me covered or it was close to my stack.
 
Most like a check here and I completely agree.
Vs one or two players I might be tempted to bet small here but multi way like this with a flop that misses most of my range and without a spade, this is an easy check/give up for me.

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with :jh::jc:
hero raises to €34
HJ calls
CO calls
SB calls
UTG+1 says "well, I guess I have to now." and calls

pot is €182
flop comes:
:7s::6s::4s:
SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Hero checks
HJ checks
CO checks

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182
:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Action on hero :jc::jh: (€756)
 
This was writing while the previous post was being posted.

I'm checking here, folding to most bets. Considering UTG+1 is a young pro and limped, this may have hit his range, as well as any of the other loose players. I'm believing I'm drawing dead, will chastise myself for not being more aggressive pre, and look for a gentle landing spot.
 
I find it interesting that UTG+1, someone who Hero suggests is a good, tight player, limped into this pot. For those reasons I think he is likely to have a low suited connector, a suited ace rag, or low pocket pair that he really likes, but should fold in EP.

The turn is an interesting card. Hero's whole range is rather weak, with most of his medium hands being overpairs and weaker hands being just ace high.

While you have turned a set, it is reasonable to assume that SB is attempting to extract value with a flopped flush, and UTG+1 is playing with his whole range hitting this board as mentioned earlier, with a lot of sets and two pair.

I think a call here would be my play. We are getting a good price to river a full house ($50 into $282), but I am not raising as I believe we will not have the best hand and I would be sick to my stomach if someone back-raises or jams.
 
Gross situation and run out so far.

The raise sizing pre is fine. Getting four callers is surprising, as much as I was to see no three bet squeeze. In my head, I'm already check folding seeing how many calls I got.

Flop is obviously gross. You're only getting called by better if you lead out. Having it checked through gives you no new information, and no one else gets out of the way, bummer.

Now the turn comes probably the worst card you can see. Now you're roped in and lose your fold equity. I check/sigh call here hoping to fill up on the river.
 
Fold pre-flop. Also, see video.
In all seriousness, I think fold pre is better than a raise size that gets four callers. Bumping it to 5x-6x would be my play (so $40-$50 pre, leaning to $45+).

As played, check that nasty flop and fold to any bet.

On the turn, call the $50 and hope a) nobody behind raises, and b) board pairs on the river. With no boat, I'm not committing any more $$ to this hand.

Edit: I'm also leary of UTG kid's play (and speech) here. I've seen AA-KK played this way often in early position.
 
In all seriousness, I think fold pre is better than a raise size that gets four callers. Bumping it to 5x-6x would be my play (so $40-$50 pre, leaning to $45+).

As played, check that nasty flop and fold to any bet.

On the turn, call the $50 and hope a) nobody behind raises, and b) board pairs on the river. With no boat, I'm not committing any more $$ to this hand.

Edit: I'm also leary of UTG kid's play (and speech) here. I've seen AA-KK played this way often in early position.
It depends on what's normal for the game. If a standard open is $30 for a 2/4 game with an ongoing $8 straddle, then yeah, go bigger, like $40 or $45. If the standard open is $16 or $20 to $25ish, the OP's open to $34 is just fine.
 
It depends on what's normal for the game. If a standard open is $30 for a 2/4 game with an ongoing $8 straddle, then yeah, go bigger, like $40 or $45. If the standard open is $16 or $20 to $25ish, the OP's open to $34 is just fine.
Standard open without a straddle was between 14 and 18.

Obviously if I had known a +4x raise would get 4 callers, I'd have made it bigger. ;)
 
It depends on what's normal for the game. If a standard open is $30 for a 2/4 game with an ongoing $8 straddle, then yeah, go bigger, like $40 or $45. If the standard open is $16 or $20 to $25ish, the OP's open to $34 is just fine.
What caught my attention was the mention of loose players, I think 3 or 4 of them, so that's where my need to adhere to standard raising goes away. In this situation I feel the pre raise wasn't big enough. How many times have we ended up in this situation with AA-JJ, especially JJ? Maybe not as often a I'm telling myself fatalistically, but, more often than I care to remember. Maybe that's just the past haunting me.

In hindsight we see that "the OP's open to $34 is just fine" likely isn't the case. But, here we are. I'm probably calling the 50, hoping to hit, and looking for the softest landing spot I can find. Those spots aren't many and as soft at this point.
 
Alright, seems like everyone agrees that a call is the best option.
Well, everybody except for hero who thinks the small bet from SB and the call from UTG+1 doesn't scream strength.
HJ and CO already had their chance to bet after hero didn't cbet so I'm not assuming they're particularly strong.

The way I see it, I've taken the lead vs smaller sets, two pairs and combo draws.
If I'm behind vs a made flush, I still have 10 clean outs.
I want to raise here to make all those hands pay for their draws and get value from worse.

Hero raises to €250.

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with :jh::jc:
hero raises to €34
HJ calls
CO calls
SB calls
UTG+1 says "well, I guess I have to now." and calls

pot is €182
flop comes:
:7s::6s::4s:
SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Hero checks
HJ checks
CO checks

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182
:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

Action on hero
 
That's just revolting, but I call.
There's just too many scenarios where we're holding the winner. Everything from two pair and sets, to pockets with a spade. He's probably not without outs, but I could see this line with a lot of hands.
If he's in fact sitting there with a flopped straight, flush, we'll just have to call and hope it's not a straight flush. And forever regret we didn't fold the jacks :D
 
I don't like the raise here. Mainly because we are only getting calls from straights, flushes, and sets. And straights and flushes could rip it in our face putting us in a miserable spot.

I don't think you can re-raise and fold to UTG+1 jam though. That being said, I don't see a lot of bluffs here. Maybe Ax with Ace of spades or Kx, but I don't find that very likely. Not a lot of straights here yet and draws like 89s probably don't back raise shove the turn often if ever. And would probably even find the fold button to your re-raise.

Really smells like a made flush. Two pair is probably folding the turn 3-bet as well. Pot odds are pretty close, but not great. Could be close if you think he could do this with a single spade or combo draws, but I don't find that very likely.

Miserable spot. I would be tempted to fold for that price and keep some profit on the day. But I think calling is fine if you want to gamble here. But you are most likely drawing to a boat.
 
To me this is what it feels like when I've made a mistake early on, and, then find myself in a place I didn't really want to be, and, didn't have to be. This isn't criticism, this is me saying how I've felt when I find myself in a place I really don't prefer.

I agree that it's hard to fold when we've raised. This guy has double our stack, could be a "pro" applying pressure thinking we'll fold to his draw. Me, being the undisciplined player that I am, will call. I'm not going to be pushed around :)
 
pot is €182
flop comes:
:7s::6s::4s:
SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Action is on hero
There are two legit ways to approach this flop.

1) You have to bet to narrow the field now
Not only are spades bad, but three ranks of over cards are bad. I'd probably bet 100 here and see what happens. I would probably fold this hand against someone willing to raise after I bet, but you have to give the single spades a chance to fold or the dry overcards, it's too much to let them see for free.

2) The turn is so high-leverage, and a bet may not fold out enough opponents, I should check and wait for a safe card.
If you take this path you are giving up whatever preflop advantage you had and you are now planning to fold to an AKQ8 or 5 on the turn, not to mention any 4th spade. Checking is planning to give up about half the time. But the upside is you are waiting to see which way the leverage swings before committing more chips. It's a lower variance play to check.

I think I prefer the bet to a check here, but I can see either side of this.

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182
:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Action on hero :jc::jh: (€756)

Since the flop checked through I just don't know if I am going to believe a flush is out there. Even someone with a :qs::xs: or a :ks::xs: flush would bet the flop to charge the single card flush redraws out there. So again two approaches.

1) Call and see the river.
It's hard to get lesser hands to pay off here and I don't think QQ+ is out anywhere at this point. I don't see a lot of two pair possibilities here either. The single card :as: or :ks: would probably call a raise here so that's the opportunity missed if we keep playing for pot control. The :js: in SB's hand is starting to make a lot of sense.

2) Raise it now and charge the probably inferior hands
Again, raising here helps you collect from the single spades. The downside is if you get re-raised, you are probably going to have to call it off and draw to a full house, so I can see where flatting the 50 has it's appeal here.

I think I prefer call to raise, but it is leaving value on the table from the single card flush draws.

:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

Action on hero
Whoa boy, didn't think that would happen. I think if you raised to 250, you are planning to call off the shove for 506 more. But I think UTG+1 's story is nut-flush or nothing. Still 500 to win 1300 is pretty plain with 10 outs plus the possibility UTG has something other than flush makes the decision. But if you weren't planning on calling the shove, then you 100% errored raising the turn the first time around.
 
pre flop the pot is already 22 so a raise to 34 is small, I'd go for a 40+ but no larger than 50

flop check 4 ways without a Js, with it maybe a 60 bet would be alright but idk I'm not a gto player

turn I'd call since it's basically a brick (besides hero's JJ), that card doesn't change the nuts, the flush is still there and no higher straight completed, so if we raise here we are basically saying we have a set or we have a nut flush which checked the flop to trap, we should be betting flop with a K,Q or a J high flush but only checking some of the time with the nut flush

utg+1 calling a sb donk bet, you raising and then utg+1 3b jamming into you who showed strength by raising into 2 people? always a flush

since you said he is a competent player (which I doubt since he limped) he could easily show up with a hand which has a good flopping potential ie a pocket pair (88 most likely since he limped utg but I doubt he'd reraise it on the turn) or an Axss or something like KTss

after the jam, you are getting 27% odds to call, if he's got a flush you're a 78 22 dog so not getting a good call directly, but if you had seen him do this with a worse hand like AsJx, or an other set, or maybe 55 with a spade and he's yoloing open ender straight flush then I'd call
 
Alright, seems like everyone agrees that a call is the best option.
Well, everybody except for hero who thinks the small bet from SB and the call from UTG+1 doesn't scream strength.
HJ and CO already had their chance to bet after hero didn't cbet so I'm not assuming they're particularly strong.

The way I see it, I've taken the lead vs smaller sets, two pairs and combo draws.
If I'm behind vs a made flush, I still have 10 clean outs.
I want to raise here to make all those hands pay for their draws and get value from worse.

Hero raises to €250.

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with :jh::jc:
hero raises to €34
HJ calls
CO calls
SB calls
UTG+1 says "well, I guess I have to now." and calls

pot is €182
flop comes:
:7s::6s::4s:
SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Hero checks
HJ checks
CO checks

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182
:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

Action on hero
Fold. Must be gto god to bluff that spot.
 
Alright, seems like everyone agrees that a call is the best option.
Well, everybody except for hero

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182
:6s::7s::4s: :jd:
SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

Action on hero
Finally the sly kid pro reveals his hidden strength, so......

Shove your remaining chips sloppily forward Helmuth-style while shouting "all-u-can-eat-baybeeeee" and bink quads on the river. That will teach his smug slow-playing ass.

Nut flush is overrated.
 
I’m with you on the raise. The 50 lead doesn’t seem strong and the flat doesn’t necessarily mean too much either. I’m not raising to fold but the back raise does make it awkward.

He can’t really have a naked flush draw as I assume he doesn’t limp/call with an unsuited Ax or connectors. Do we think he can limp/call small pairs? If so I can see him having a flopped set that tried to get a cheap chance at a boating up on the turn but deciding to go with it after you raised (you can’t really have a flush since you checked the flop and unless you have JJ specifically, you’re capped at AA). For the same reason I can potentially see him turning 55 or 88 with a spade into a bluff. Or like A6 suited for set blocker.

He will of course have a flush here as well or he could have like 85 or 53 suited other than spades. After flop and turn action, he’s pretty much the only one who could still have a flush anyway.

All in all, I’m calling
 
I’m with you on the raise. The 50 lead doesn’t seem strong and the flat doesn’t necessarily mean too much either. I’m not raising to fold but the back raise does make it awkward.

He can’t really have a naked flush draw as I assume he doesn’t limp/call with an unsuited Ax or connectors. Do we think he can limp/call small pairs? If so I can see him having a flopped set that tried to get a cheap chance at a boating up on the turn but deciding to go with it after you raised (you can’t really have a flush since you checked the flop and unless you have JJ specifically, you’re capped at AA). For the same reason I can potentially see him turning 55 or 88 with a spade into a bluff. Or like A6 suited for set blocker.

He will of course have a flush here as well or he could have like 85 or 53 suited other than spades. After flop and turn action, he’s pretty much the only one who could still have a flush anyway.

All in all, I’m calling
I agree with this. I also wanna put it out there that you only have all the overpairs and JJ, there's not a lot of value V can extract from all your range. This back raise from UTG+1 is suspicious. We are also beating a lot of his range of two pairs and sets. Occasionally he will have a flush but even if so we aren't dead yet. Call.

Edit: I am mostly discounting the fact that V has a flush as he only flatted the SB's bet. His flush ranges mainly consists of small-medium suited connectors such as 9Ts, 8T, etc which do not want to see a big spade come along from LP. CO and HJ could definitely have the As here, which means that he is more likely to raise and the flat call to me screams a set or worse.
 
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