PAHWM: JJ on a monotone board (2 Viewers)

[LeLe]

Pot is €182

SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

I will raise here quite frequently at the turn as well just to know where I am rather than calling and have 1 danger card show up and not sure if I should call the All in or huge bet at River.

I will raise here and fold if the SB shove, SB is going to have Flush 99% at this point.

I will raise here and call UTG+1 if SB fold and UTG Shove, what shit is going to flat call the SB and somehow turn into a shove.
This smell so much like having a A Spade blocker turning into a semi bluff so often than not, and occasionally he holding a Smaller set and willing to gamble.

Sure, we might be behind some time to a straight or a small flush but this is poker. Nothing is absolute.

 

[Coyote]

I will raise here quite frequently at the turn as well just to know where I am rather than calling and have 1 danger card show up and not sure if I should call the All in or huge bet at River.

I will raise here and fold if the SB shove, SB is going to have Flush 99% at this point.

I will raise here and call UTG+1 if SB fold and UTG Shove, what shit is going to flat call the SB and somehow turn into a shove.
This smell so much like having a A Spade blocker turning into a semi bluff so often than not, and occasionally he holding a Smaller set and willing to gamble.

Sure, we might be behind some time to a straight or a small flush but this is poker. Nothing is absolute.

In our confrontations, you 've been behind most of the time, sweetheart

 

[LeLe]

In our confrontations, you 've been behind most of the time, sweetheart

The last time I check, Angelo mentioned the UTG+1 is a young GTO pro and not an OMC so

Plus I am always supposed to be playing loose at 10/20c stake I am always ready to gamble

 

[Coyote]

I 'm an OMW

 

[Coyote]

Not to be confused with the Austrian oil company OMV

 

[grandmeme]

I will raise here quite frequently at the turn as well just to know where I am rather than calling and have 1 danger card show up and not sure if I should call the All in or huge bet at River.

I will raise here and fold if the SB shove, SB is going to have Flush 99% at this point.

I will raise here and call UTG+1 if SB fold and UTG Shove, what shit is going to flat call the SB and somehow turn into a shove.
This smell so much like having a A Spade blocker turning into a semi bluff so often than not, and occasionally he holding a Smaller set and willing to gamble.

Sure, we might be behind some time to a straight or a small flush but this is poker. Nothing is absolute.

I would raise some of the time here but isn't a SB lead into 5 players usually nutted? If we raise and have to fold to a SB back jam a lot of the time we're lighting 1/4 of our stack on fire. Unless SB is a total maniac/fish.

 

[LeLe]

but isn't a SB lead into 5 players usually nutted?

I often notice people who like to lead into the pot with a small bet is doing sort of like a blocking bet, and rarely have the nutted hand.

Usually if they have the nut, they will bet around 100-150 because they want to build up the pot asap and also protect their hand

 

[philhut]

Fold right away, you'll likely overplay your Jack's and lose a bunch of money. It's for the best.

 

[Josh Kifer]

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Most would call here although most would not be in this spot because raising the turn seems to be hated by the majority of you.

Of course Hero isn't thrilled with the back raise/jam from UTG+1 but in the end I settled on a call.
I might be up against a made flush but also some sets or naked As (although I don't see this guy limp calling many off suit aces from early positions) he would play this way.

I posted this hand because I wasn't sure about my turn raise and I thank you all for your insight.

Now let's get to the reveal, shall we?

10 handed, UTG straddle to 8 is on.
Stack sizes: 4-5 short stacks between €200 -400 and a couple at ~€800

UTG +1 (the young pro - sitting on around €1600 as the uncontested big stack at the table) limps
It's on hero in UTG+2 (€790) with
hero raises to €34
HJ calls
CO calls
SB calls
UTG+1 says "well, I guess I have to now." and calls

pot is €182
flop comes:

SB checks
UTG+1 checks
Hero checks
HJ checks
CO checks

Here's where it gets spicy.

Pot is €182

SB now leads €50 (remaining stack: €550)
UTG+1 calls (covers hero easily)
Hero raises to €250 (€506 left in his stack)
HJ folds
CO folds
SB folds
UTG+1 back raises all in.
Pot is now €1338
€506 for hero to call.

Hero calls and is all in. The pot is €1844 and thus the biggest pot hero ever played by quite a big margin.

Before the dealer gets a chance to deal the river, UTG+1 lifts his cards and holds them up to my face and shows me

Spoiler

with a smug grin.

I quickly turn over top set to at least give him a little sweat since the way he showed me he seemed to be sure I was drawing dead.

I watch the dealer burn and deal the river like it's all in slow motion.
The river comes a meaningless
and I get felted.

Thank you all for playing along.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Don't be sad guys.

Gotta admit, I did look pretty much exactly like this (well , not as dashing as Matt Damon but you get the idea).

But unlike Mike I brought a second bullet and the session wasn't over yet...

Spoiler: Session graph

And to make it even sweeter:
I won pretty much all of it back from the young pro in one hand:
Redemption

 

[JustinInMN]

Most would call here although most would not be in this spot because raising the turn seems to be hated by the majority of you.

I don't hate the raise, but I hate the raise-fold line. If you raise in this spot you have decided to play for stacks and are accepting running into the occasional flush.

Calling maybe be better in retrospect. Hard to know.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I don't hate the raise, but I hate the raise-fold line. If you raise in this spot you have decided to play for stacks and are accepting running into the occasional flush.

Calling maybe be better in retrospect. Hard to know.

Yeah, raise-fold never seemed like a viable option to me either.

 

[Senzrock]

Yeah, raise-fold never seemed like a viable option to me either.

Interesting hand, thanks for sharing.

I do think that if we check flop (which is totally standard), then raising the turn makes little sense. I think it’s a pretty big mistake actually as it achieves the classic line about villain folding everything we have beat and shoving everything that beats us. The call of the shove is just a question of your interest in gambling (I’m always calling there also and hoping for a set over set situation). But the river call isn’t too interesting either way.

We have to keep asking ourselves - is this raise on the turn a way to “get information” (my least favorite strategy in poker because information is never perfect), but if it is for that purpose, I would raise turn smaller ($125 will look just as nutted as $250 for example). Check is standard check back, turn is always a just call with this many players at a 10 handed table, and then the river is a reassessment (prob fold to big bet and call a smaller one).

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

I do think that if we check flop (which is totally standard), then raising the turn makes little sense. I think it’s a pretty big mistake actually as it achieves the classic line about villain folding everything we have beat and shoving everything that beats us.

In retrospect I agree that calling the turn is probably the better line.

But I don't think a raise will fold out everything we beat.
The HJ and CO both had a chance to build the pot/protect their made hands like sets, straights and flushes after I didn't cbet the flop.
So the villains I mostly worry about are the SB and UTG+1.

Let's put ourselves in the shoes of the SB.
If he flopped a set or something like top two pair, a small bet multi way makes sense since no one showed interest in the pot yet.
Is the typical unknown live player folding a set or top two to my raise here? Personally, I i don't think so. Players are on average quite sticky with big made hands plus their full house draws (Who am I to judge, I did the same thing after the shove ).

Now let's put ourselves in UTG+1 shoes IF he would've flopped a set or top two pair.
Checking the flop to the PFA is standard. Now he got to the turn and is facing a €50 bet into a €180 pot. A call makes perfect sense with those hands.
Will he fold to the raise drawing to a full house? Especially if the SB calls before him, giving him pot odds of 3.4:1? I don't think so.

I do agree however that if either he or the SB shoves, I'm likely behind. Not every time, but most of the times.
Not enough to fold though, I came all this way to gamble after all.