His Rule, not mine (1 Viewer)

[BGinGA]

In many ways, PCF is a large extended family -- a bunch of folks with one or more common bonds.

Just wouldn't seem like family if somebody wasn't arguing with somebody else over something.....

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

If this is true, I’m definitely sending out invoices for anyone whose read a 8K/10K of a company I audited... I don’t audit for free.

 

[saleen121212]

In many ways, PCF is a large extended family -- a bunch of folks with one or more common bonds.

Just wouldn't seem like family if somebody wasn't arguing with somebody else over something.....

This doesn't seem like a family thing to do. I understand charging for changing a denom, but that takes 5 key strokes max? 100 dollars just to use the art, which doesn't have a trademark and was used first by lemon is what irks everyone.

 

[Josh Kifer]

In many ways, PCF is a large extended family -- a bunch of folks with one or more common bonds.

Just wouldn't seem like family if somebody wasn't arguing with somebody else over something.....

You love family, but it does not mean you gotta like them.

And yes, that's a shot at @Zmasterben . I hate you.

 

[ssanel54]

Its an interesting dynamic for sure. And besides @RainmanTrail and I believe @liftapint, I dont know who else bought SB chips. I totally get the desire to want to enhance your sets with custom denoms, DBs, cut cards etc, (done it myself many times), but when you plunk down a good deal of cash for a somewhat exclusive set, don't you also want to ensure that the design doesnt get overused? For example would you like to see a SB CPC run or china clay group buy? I know I would have some real hesitation if I was a buyer and it got offered up freely after the fact. Dont know if others feel the same?

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Its an interesting dynamic for sure. And besides @RainmanTrail and I believe @liftapint, I dont know who else bought SB chips. I totally get the desire to want to enhance your sets with custom denoms, DBs, cut cards etc, (done it myself many times), but when you plunk down a good deal of cash for a somewhat exclusive set, don't you also want to ensure that the design doesnt get overused? For example would you like to see a SB CPC run or china clay group buy? I know I would have some real hesitation if I was a buyer and it got offered up freely after the fact. Dont know if others feel the same?

Let’s be honest, people (like me) buying cheap knockoffs are not in the same group as the people who are actually driving the value of the real thing here.

I guess someone could just get all the denoms possible made then order a cool 2,000 of each from Gear for the $100 artwork fee and then boom your artwork usage fee per label would be like $0.02 instead of the $0.50 per label. Just an idea and everyone’s happy cause they got paid for their work right?

 

[Perthmike]

Its an interesting dynamic for sure. And besides @RainmanTrail and I believe @liftapint, I dont know who else bought SB chips. I totally get the desire to want to enhance your sets with custom denoms, DBs, cut cards etc, (done it myself many times), but when you plunk down a good deal of cash for a somewhat exclusive set, don't you also want to ensure that the design doesnt get overused? For example would you like to see a SB CPC run or china clay group buy? I know I would have some real hesitation if I was a buyer and it got offered up freely after the fact. Dont know if others feel the same?

A couple of the buyers only bought say 2-3 denoms and potentially wanted to relabel a different chip for the $1 for example, or label up a new frac.

 

[12thMan]

This doesn't seem like a family thing to do. I understand charging for changing a denom, but that takes 5 key strokes max? 100 dollars just to use the art, which doesn't have a trademark and was used first by lemon is what irks everyone.

I don’t have a side to pick in this, and I hear what you are saying about 5 key strokes, but I’m not sure that’s the way to assign value to what he’s doing. I’ve worked with cars since high school, there are some things I know how to do that would take me ten minutes but the average person an hour or two. I used to feel real guilty when I was young charging people good money for something that “only” takes a little bit of time until someone set me straight. They aren’t paying me for those particular ten minutes, well they are, but more so they are paying me for the years of doing it wrong and the experience to get to replacing the part/fixing the issue in that amount of time. Yep it’s easier for me because I have the tools and knowledge but neither of those things are free to the customer, it took me blood, sweat, and tears to acquire those things-that is not worthless and in fact where the “price” comes from.

Don’t think of it as paying Tobey to ouch three buttons on a computer, think of it as paying for tobey to have the artistic eye (something that is priceless if you are somebody like myself who who doesn’t) and the years of experience to get to the point where he is that it just takes a few key strokes.

Again, no opinion on this, but in the grand scheme of things he is doing and has done much more to get his “product”to the point of just changing a denom is even if it seems outlandish to charge for a few key strokes.

 

[ssanel54]

Let’s be honest, people (like me) buying cheap knockoffs are not in the same group as the people who are actually driving the value of the real thing here.

I think this is the point I was trying to make. People who are driving the value of these chips, may enjoy the exclusivity factor. I Love my Dunes set, but I really wish the design wasnt mass produced as a china clay. Some may not collect Dunes for this specific reason.

 

[MatB]

I don’t have a side to pick in this, and I hear what you are saying about 5 key strokes, but I’m not sure that’s the way to assign value to what he’s doing. I’ve worked with cars since high school, there are some things I know how to do that would take me ten minutes but the average person an hour or two. I used to feel real guilty when I was young charging people good money for something that “only” takes a little bit of time until someone set me straight. They aren’t paying me for those particular ten minutes, well they are, but more so they are paying me for the years of doing it wrong and the experience to get to replacing the part/fixing the issue in that amount of time. Yep it’s easier for me because I have the tools and knowledge but neither of those things are free to the customer, it took me blood, sweat, and tears to acquire those things-that is not worthless and in fact where the “price” comes from.

Don’t think of it as paying Tobey to ouch three buttons on a computer, think of it as paying for tobey to have the artistic eye (something that is priceless if you are somebody like myself who who doesn’t) and the years of experience to get to the point where he is that it just takes a few key strokes.

Again, no opinion on this, but in the grand scheme of things he is doing and has done much more to get his “product”to the point of just changing a denom is even if it seems outlandish to charge for a few key strokes.

Yup, i work in construction and nothing tilts me more than when a homeowner says 'that only you took an hour' and think they shouldn't pay on an agreed price.

 

[cpac54]

So this hobby is just about the money now, good to know. Good thing hockey season is right around the corner, it will be a nice diversion.

Ugh, don't remind me, I'm an Oilers fan.

 

[Saoliver]

Ugh, don't remind me, I'm an Oilers fan.

I can't wait until we in Seattle get our team. I would rather have a bad hockey team than no hockey team.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I think this is the point I was trying to make. People who are driving the value of these chips, may enjoy the exclusivity factor. I Love my Dunes set, but I really wish the design wasnt mass produced as a china clay. Some may not collect Dunes for this specific reason.

I guess I was going for the opposite, since the alternate product is so inferior and not like the real thing it wouldn’t both me that knockoffs were made nor would it affect the value of my product. To each their own though.

I’m just glad we’ve all moved on from debating boats

 

[12thMan]

I guess I was going for the opposite, since the alternate product is so inferior and not like the real thing it wouldn’t both me that knockoffs were made nor would it affect the value of my product. To each their own though.

I’m just glad we’ve all moved on from debating boats

I agree. I wouldn’t not want a real Cobra because of all the kit cars (by the way I’ll take a fiberglass kit car too if you are listening universe), I wouldn’t turn down a Ferrari because some guys with MR2s put a body kit on them to make them resemble one... No substitute for the real thing.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I think this is the point I was trying to make. People who are driving the value of these chips, may enjoy the exclusivity factor. I Love my Dunes set, but I really wish the design wasnt mass produced as a china clay. Some may not collect Dunes for this specific reason.

It hasn’t hurt the value of Paulson Pharaohs at all. They are as expensive as ever.

 

[MatB]

SB was a driven venture. The organizer of that venture engaged the services of a designer to CREATE artwork to use in that venture. For which the artist/ designer would be paid for those services.

There was/ is an understanding between the organizer and the artist/ designer, that the artist/ designer maintained control of the artwork.

The organizer did not provide their own artwork.

Once the venture was underway, more designs and further use of the original design was needed. The designer/ artist said YES but there is a fee involved if you wish to do this.


And this is why people are upset?


EDIT: changed was/is to was/is. As there definitely IS an understanding now.

 

[MatB]

Pretty sure the designer would have been well within their rights to even say, no. Sorry but adding more labels would devalue the chips,

I've had at least one instance where that has happened to me personally when i wanted to have something done.

What i didn't do was go public with a tirade about how unfair and selfish it is. Because it wasn't. That person had every right to say no.

 

[ssanel54]

It hasn’t hurt the value of Paulson Pharaohs at all. They are as expensive as ever.

Well, I dont see any of those high end buyers who pay $8-10 per chip posting WTB for Pharaohs.

 

[Zmasterben]

You love family, but it does not mean you gotta like them.

And yes, that's a shot at @Zmasterben . I hate you.

Good thing we only have to see each other once a year at the PCF family reunion.

PS your egg salad sucks

 

[Josh Kifer]

Good thing we only have to see each other once a year at the PCF family reunion.

PS your egg salad sucks

You drink too much and embarrass all of us every year.

And that wasn't egg salad, it was old motor oil. We kept telling you to get out of the garage.

 

[Lemonzest]

There was/ is an understanding between the organizer and the artist/ designer, that the artist/ designer maintained control of the artwork.

This is not true.

 

[saleen121212]

This is not true. We never talked about rights or usage.

You were not involved so dont presume to know or speak for others.

Can you clarify if you had the idea for the art or just let Toby run with the whole project? Not that it matters, just curious who's idea it was.

 

[Lemonzest]

Can you clarify if you had the idea for the art or just let Toby run with the whole project? Not that it matters, just curious who's idea it was.

I am not a designer nor do I even have any software to come up with stuff.

 

[RainmanTrail]

This doesn't seem like a family thing to do. I understand charging for changing a denom, but that takes 5 key strokes max? 100 dollars just to use the art, which doesn't have a trademark and was used first by lemon is what irks everyone.

That and NOT informing his client that this was his plan from the outset. The deceit is my primary issue.

@Toby keeps pretending that we're all just a bunch of cheap asses who don't want to pay him for his work. Which is of course a strawman argument. No one here thinks he shouldn't be well paid for his work. But no one wants to feel like they got raped after paying for design help either.

I guess the key takeaway here that I hoped to convey through this entire fiasco is that if you are looking for design help, there are plenty of excellent designers here that are highly skilled, super helpful, fair, and straight forward about what you're getting when you pay for their services. Then there's Toby.

 

[Coyote]

In many ways, PCF is a large extended family -- a bunch of folks with one or more common bonds.

Just wouldn't seem like family if somebody wasn't arguing with somebody else over something.....

Actually, murders among extended family members about property issues are (in numbers) only second to murders among spouses

 

[Burke]

The better point that you should take away from this thread is that as a purchaser of a product you need to make yourself aware of all aspects of the deal - that involves asking questions That’s a life lesson that should be taught to your kids.

 

[RainmanTrail]

There was/ is an understanding between the organizer and the artist/ designer, that the artist/ designer maintained control of the artwork.

You guys conveniently keep glossing over the entire point! THERE WAS NO UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN TOBY AND LEMON THAT HE WASN'T BUYING THE RIGHTS TO THE ARTWORK HE HIRED HIM FOR! Toby was not forthright about wanting to collect on the backend. Had he been up front about what he was getting or if he had offered two different prices for each option, none of this would have been an issue.

There are two paths Toby could have taken. The open and honest business dealings approach or the deceptive and greedy approach. Toby took the latter.

Totally in his "rights" to do so, but shitty dealings with others have consequences.

This is not true. We never talked about rights or usage.

You were not involved so dont presume to know or speak for others.

 

[ssanel54]

You guys conveniently keep glossing over the entire point! THERE WAS NO UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN TOBY AND LEMON THAT HE WASN'T BUYING THE RIGHTS TO THE ARTWORK HE HIRED HIM FOR! Toby was not forthright about wanting to collect on the backend. Had he been up front about what he was getting or if he had offered two different prices for each option, none of this would have been an issue.

There are two paths Toby could have taken. The open and honest business dealings approach or the deceptive and greedy approach. Toby took the latter.

Totally in his "rights" to do so, but shitty dealings with others have consequences.

This is Roshomon.

The alternative is that there was also no understanding that he was buying the artwork. if Perry had not even considered extending the use of the artwork for an additional order or for labels because it conveniently never came up, then why would he assume that it was his to offer to others?

 

[MatB]

You posit a theory that bolsters your argument, and then post a false dichotomy.

This is redonkulous.

 

[Coyote]

What I consider reasonable, having built a custom set, with custom labels:
-If I want more chips (add-ons) or dealer buttons or cut cards to be made, I don't owe anything more to the designer.
-If I sell my chips to another person, the buyer doesn't owe anything to the designer.
-If another person wants to build exactly the same set, they should ask for MY permission first, about a yes or a no, and then (if I say yes) they should ask the designer about his possibly demanding extra remuneration (it's up to the designer). Think about Michelangelo and the Pope. I 'm the Pope who paid for the work of art, sorry
-If another person wants to use my labels on totally different chips, then it's exactly as above.
-Last but not least, I (as the seller) should make clear to the buyer that I 'm selling only provided that they will not alter the chips by putting a different label on them (if that is my desire)