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His Rule, not mine (1 Viewer)

When I worked in the past with @timinater on a replica design, I paid him and he sent me all of the art files...as I assumed was the norm. (Tim is great to work with, BTW.) If I'm paying a graphic designer to make me a website logo or a photographer to take my picture...I'm not going to expect to have to pay "royalties" on future use of the items I've already paid for.

I would think each new design (new denom, bounty chip, dealer button, etc) would commission a fee and it would be up to the client/commissioner to decide what to do with the art and where it can be used once the design task is complete.

I guess if nothing else this thread has prompted me to be more thoughtful when entering into any future design agreements.
 
If you are spending 1000’s on a set, that was mostly designed by @Toby , a professional designer. And you want @Gear a professional printer... to collectively redesign the inlays of your set, then You are going to pay the professionals to do it, including Toby.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about.

The “community” thing to do is help our chip designers like Toby make a couple bucks off their hard work. What’s $120 of the fricking $5000 set. Make lemon eat the cost when you buy them for God’s sake. You same guys probably spend $100 on a single WSOP chip from 1981 just because it has $Doyles booger on it or something.

If you can afford the SB chips, and the stock design isn’t special enough for you... you can afford to kick @Toby a black chip to make your dreams come true.

I think it’s crazy to pay 10 a chip on a big set and getting all fussy about $100 artwork fee for the guy who saved the day, ....crap, @Lemonzest even said he did most of the spot design.

It’s a convoluted mess though... sticking to my cheap ass solids. :)
 
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Perthmike said:
Screenshot_20190830_092029.jpgScreenshot_20190729_162954.jpg

What if I want to change the surfboard colours and sun colour. Is that a new design? It's a nice inlay, but I don't think its exactly a custom design in the strictest sense.
Click to expand...

If the answer is no, then where do you draw the line? It's obvious that the SB design is a derivation of the Dunes. Should people be asking Toby or the owner of the Dunes design for permission to replicate it? Did Toby get permission to modify the Dunes logo? If not, then how can anyone claim that he owns the SB replica if he did not have permission to create it in the first place? I'm not a lawyer and don't know shit about copyright or IP law, but this whole thing fiasco just sucks.
 
Johnblue said:
If you are spending 1000’s on a set, that was mostly designed by @Toby , a professional designer. And you want @Gear a professional printer... to collectively redesign the inlays of your set, then You are going to pay the professionals to do it, including Toby.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about.

The “community” thing to do is help our chip designers like Toby make a couple bucks off their hard work. What’s $120 of the fricking $5000 set. Make lemon eat the cost when you buy them for God’s sake. You same guys probably spend $100 on a single WSOP chip from 1981 just because it has $Doyles booger on it or something.

If you can afford the SB chips, and the stock design isn’t special enough for you... you can afford to kick @Toby a black chip to make your dreams come true.

You all are crazy! Paying 10 a chip on a big set and getting all fussy about $100 artwork fee for the guy who saved the day, ....crap, @Lemonzest even said he did most of the spot design. Somebody better pay him well, when..cough.lEmOn cough.

It’s a convoluted mess though... sticking to my cheap ass solids. :)
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is saying that a designer shouldn't be compensated for his work. Here's how I assumed it went down in any/all cases, before reading this thread:

1) I request a design from a designer, we agree on the fee...hourly, per chip, flat, whatever it is. Let's say hourly for this example. Agreed upon fee is $25 per hour.
2) Designer spends 10 hours designing. I buy off on the design.
3) I pay the agreed upon amount, $250.
4) Art files are sent to me to do what I wish with them. Print Labels, make a T-shirt, make business cards, whatever...the design is now mine, I've paid for it.
5) Someone wishes to use my design base to create something similar, but needs slight alterations (new denom amount, dealer button, etc).
6) I commission the changes, pay the designer for them, and now I own them and can meter out the use of the revised/new design alterations as I wish. I probably charge the initial requester of the design revisions for the fee that I paid the designer.
7) Repeat as necessary...

The main difference in this case, it seems, is that Lemon does not have the design files...so he has essentially only "leased" the design.
 
v1pe said:
I don't think anyone is saying that a designer shouldn't be compensated for his work. Here's how I assumed it went down in any/all cases, before reading this thread:

1) I request a design from a designer, we agree on the fee...hourly, per chip, flat, whatever it is. Let's say hourly for this example. Agreed upon fee is $25 per hour.
2) Designer spends 10 hours designing. I buy off on the design.
3) I pay the agreed upon amount, $250.
4) Art files are sent to me to do what I wish with them. Print Labels, make a T-shirt, make business cards, whatever...the design is now mine, I've paid for it.
5) Someone wishes to use my design base to create something similar, but needs slight alterations (new denom amount, dealer button, etc).
6) I commission the changes, pay the designer for them, and now I own them and can meter out the use of the revised/new design alterations as I wish. I probably charge the initial requester of the design revisions for the fee that I paid the designer.
7) Repeat as necessary...

The main difference in this case, it seems, is that Lemon does not have the design files...so he has essentially only "leased" the design.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get it, and if it were a @CPC set, that was near perfect..., but didnt quadruple+ in value the minute the boxes land.... the designer would probably be lighthanded like that, but when the commissioner is looking at a profit that rivals what most people make in a year... I would cover my back as an artist too. Especially if I hadn’t even been paid the main payment I was promised.
 
This reminds me of the famous Chip Donkey cop rant.

We've covered art ownership.

We've covered ability to get labels made.

I've explained the reason why I initially said "No labels" (to protect others, not me).

What questions are left unanswered? PM if you have any. I'm not going to trawl through screeds of ravings to find them, so if you need anything else from me send me a message - it'll be the fastest route to resolution.

I'll make a further commitment to PCF. Whatever line of work you're in, IT, law, construction, whatever. I promise I'll never tell anyone they can use your work or services for free. :)

The most expensive SB chip, after all the costs, was the hundo. $1.66e. But sure, be pissed off at me for taking advantage of you all you like. Go for it.

If you have issue paying for things, you're all grown ups. You're the masters of your own destinies. Be sure to choose wisely. Refer to the scrub donkey thread for additional reading.

Chip on, have fun!
 
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arch3r said:
If the answer is no, then where do you draw the line? It's obvious that the SB design is a derivation of the Dunes. Should people be asking Toby or the owner of the Dunes design for permission to replicate it? Did Toby get permission to modify the Dunes logo? If not, then how can anyone claim that he owns the SB replica if he did not have permission to create it in the first place? I'm not a lawyer and don't know shit about copyright or IP law, but this whole thing fiasco just sucks.
Click to expand...
I’m also curious where the line is, for instance if I remove the trees, change the typeface and slightly alter the text is this now a royalty free usable image for labels?
01509650-1BA4-4D0D-8C47-AB8C175E08F6.jpeg

Or am I now borderline infringing upon Breaking Bad IP?
E5ACBEF2-B678-438C-8C93-2EF6E711536E.jpeg
 
kmccormick100 said:
I’m also curious where the line is, for instance if I remove the trees, change the typeface and slightly alter the text is this now a royalty free usable image for labels?View attachment 331011
Or am I now borderline infringing upon Breaking Bad IP?
View attachment 331013
Click to expand...

LOL happens all the time with people knocking off the stuff I design for my side gig. Actually don’t have to change much at all for there to be technically no infringement unfortunately.

I see both sides, but boils down to it should have been covered first. When I first started out, before I knew illustrator, the designers I worked with always made it clear if I was buying the full rights to the design or if it was a limited run use.

Also, in for Sunset Bitch GB.
 
And for anyone whining about having to pay to use the artwork (and for me to create additional denoms not part of the core line up)...

I'm asking for less than you paid for a barrel of chips.

If you've bought chips at market price for thousands of $$$$ and have issue with that, you need help.

Time to (wo)man up and move on with your lives.

Have a nice day. :)
 
I think it's more that people can handle getting bent over, but they'd prefer not to get spitroasted :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:. You've unfortunately been beaten to the bending over.

Though if I were interested in using the labels, I'd happily pay you to edit a new denom.

I respectfully suggest that the artwork fee is not particularly related to the chip price. The artwork is nice, but what if it was designed for a Sun-fly chip that costs $0.60. in that case you'd be charging the same price for your artwork as almost 2 racks of chips.

I think this goes more broadly than the sunsets, but since it started the convo in just asking the question.

Also, not your fault that buyers weren't clear that the fees would be required when they purchased the chips. But I'm sure you can appreciate the shock of some people at finding out some expensive chips are even more expensive
 
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Perthmike said:
The artwork ownership thing has always confused me to be honest. At what point does the customer own, or partially own the artwork if the idea was theirs.

Forgetting the sunset inlay, what if ask for a design called concrete jungle and I ask for the dunes inlay, but with a car instead of a flag and buildings instead of the two trees.

To be clear, I'm not saying that's what happened here, I don't know who came up with the idea.

I'm genuinely asking the question, because it happens a lot with these types of homage design such as the sunsets, or concrete jungle lol surely consideration has to be given to the idea and the inspiration.
View attachment 330915View attachment 330916

What if I want to change the surfboard colours and sun colour. Is that a new design? It's a nice inlay, but I don't think its exactly a custom design in the strictest sense.

I do agree that toby has every right to charge for edits and such that he is asked for. I'm less sure about the one of charge for the rights to use it, but then I'm not a designer. I'd like to have a bit more clarity regarding who came up with what.

Not digging at Toby or perry with this post and normally I'd say it's not our business, but this was clearly a set designed for resale and there are plenty of people who bought with the expectation that they'd get to reprint labels. Chips were purchased at very high prices, so I think some level of explanation and clarity is owed for the buyers sake.
Click to expand...
Good eye on putting the Dunes side by side to this chip
 
For the record, I'm confused.

A. You didn't like the initial, disproved "No labels" message.

B. You don't like the happy news that "Yes, labels can be done" message.

To reiterate, I'm not making anything out of the $$$$ you hand over to lemonzest. You've not paid me anything to use my artwork, or for my time to create additional denoms.

I don't work for free. This isn't charity work.

You can choose to take happy path B and pay to get labels done. Or you can opt to not get labels done and walk away.

If you loaded up chips at market price on the assumption that you can use my work for free, you should research and plan your projects properly in the future. Relabel the SBs instead. You have options.

And for anyone relabelling SBs, the great news for Travis is that it increases the scarcity of his holding. If enough people opt to do that instead, his chips will one day be worth what he paid for them. Ur welcome, buddy! (y)

I'm dialling out of this thread now but if you want to conduct a sane conversation, I'm happy to do so via PM.
 
Not sure how many chips are still available for sale, but wouldn’t a simple solution be for Perry to negotiate a unlimited usage fee from Toby and then just bake it into his margins? Then he could offer the possibility of custom labels to anyone he wants.
 
Shouldn't Toby and Lemonzest be vendors since they obviously went into this for exactly one reason? I believe Forest and Scott were vendors when they bought chips for a resale purpose?
 
RainmanTrail said:
Don't get me wrong. I get that Toby is within his rights to conduct business this way. I'm sure there is some copyright law that exists where he can take advantage of people by not informing them that they needed to write up a contract if they wanted to actually "own" the logo they hired him to design. I just think it's a shitty way to conduct business, especially in a "community".
Click to expand...

Here is a good example of a for sale classified which clearly articulates that artwork rights are included in the purchase. Obvious this seller knows that is not normally the case, and that it provides an additional value to the purchaser. ;) I have no idea what type of arrangement he has with his designer.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cali-rounders-800-md-50-mold-set.26318/
 
w00zie said:
....Here it is true and I would be surprised if it was different in the US. "For hire" or not, intellectual property is always on the creator....

A quote from German patent office:
"Copyright protects personal intellectual creations. It is created without formal registration and is free of charge: a work is considered protected by copyright as soon as it is created."
Click to expand...

France and Germany differ from the US, UK, and Canada in this regard:

"Analysis of International
Work-for-Hire Laws
The following memorandum addresses the concept of works made
for hire in the international arena. Specifically, it discusses how the
copyright laws of the United States, Australia, the United Kingdom,
France, Germany, China, and Japan treat creative works when the author
is either an employee or an independent contractor.
Executive Summary
Japan and three common law states (the United States, Australia,
and the United Kingdom) recognize works made for hire in the
employment context by providing for the vesting of ownership in an
employer for the creative works of employees made in the course or scope
of employment. Australia, however, does make an exception for the
works of professional journalists.
France, Germany, and China, all civil law countries, vest initial
ownership of such a work in the employee, but Chinese law provides for a
mandatory two-year license to the employer by the employee. German
courts also often will imply a contractual transfer of ownership to the
employer based upon an employment agreement. In most cases, moral
rights are retained by the employee author as they are inalienable once
originally vested in the employee. All three nations have specific
exceptions for software, ownership of which vests in the employer.
France and Germany have similar exceptions for audio-visual works, and
France and China have exceptions for collective works...."
 
Perthmike said:
The artwork ownership thing has always confused me to be honest. At what point does the customer own, or partially own the artwork if the idea was theirs.

Forgetting the sunset inlay, what if ask for a design called concrete jungle and I ask for the dunes inlay, but with a car instead of a flag and buildings instead of the two trees.

To be clear, I'm not saying that's what happened here, I don't know who came up with the idea.

I'm genuinely asking the question, because it happens a lot with these types of homage design such as the sunsets, or concrete jungle lol surely consideration has to be given to the idea and the inspiration.
View attachment 330915View attachment 330916

What if I want to change the surfboard colours and sun colour. Is that a new design? It's a nice inlay, but I don't think its exactly a custom design in the strictest sense.

I do agree that toby has every right to charge for edits and such that he is asked for. I'm less sure about the one of charge for the rights to use it, but then I'm not a designer. I'd like to have a bit more clarity regarding who came up with what.

Not digging at Toby or perry with this post and normally I'd say it's not our business, but this was clearly a set designed for resale and there are plenty of people who bought with the expectation that they'd get to reprint labels. Chips were purchased at very high prices, so I think some level of explanation and clarity is owed for the buyers sake.
Click to expand...
This actually hits the nail on the head. I have talked to a copyright lawyer and the owners of the Dunes artwork (which I think chiproom paid big money for , and transferred to apache), would have a copyright case, but I really wouldn't see that happening. We in this community, going back to chiptalk days, have been copying artwork forever . I want artwork similar to the real design, so I am willing to look the other way. I've comissioned J5 to design for me. He doesn't like to copy work and I understand. He comes up with great stuff on his own. He gave me the option of owning the rights to the work, (at a higher cost), or just using his design at a lower cost, which allows him to use the design elsewhere. But after talking to the copyright lawyer, I always chuckle at people that want a fee for borrowing someone's design. But I would still pay that fee. If I wanted SB labels, I would contact Toby, because we are a communtiy, and I wouldn't want to rock the boat, But that's just me and my opinion .
 
Perthmike said:
What if you design a custom CPC set and someone else wants to have their own set made, for personal use.

Should you contact the original artist and see if they want a fee for the production of the second set?

I have to admit I discussed that with someone and didn't really think about that. I would have gleefully given permission (out of kindness) without another thought. Now that I think on it, I guess that's a faux pas? This is too confusing lol
Click to expand...
Lol. I have allowed others to use my stuff for personal orders. At the very least permission should be asked to use such a thing. That being said, a company like CPC and SunFly won’t knowingly allow someone to run another’s art without written consent. For me, I retain no rights. I hold on to everything I do but as far as I’m concerned I have no interest in collecting “fees” (lol) for a design that was the brainchild of someone who has already paid me for the process.
This doesn’t mean rhat artists that do are wrong. It’s their choice and is a widely accepted practise. I just don’t agree with the perceived gouging of members within a hobby group.
 
Quicksilver-75 said:
Lol. I have allowed others to use my stuff for personal orders. At the very least permission should be asked to use such a thing. That being said, a company like CPC and SunFly won’t knowingly allow someone to run another’s art without written consent. For me, I retain no rights. I hold on to everything I do but as far as I’m concerned I have no interest in collecting “fees” (lol) for a design that was the brainchild of someone who has already paid me for the process.
Click to expand...

^ That's why you are our favorite :D
 
Quicksilver-75 said:
Lol. I have allowed others to use my stuff for personal orders. At the very least permission should be asked to use such a thing. That being said, a company like CPC and SunFly won’t knowingly allow someone to run another’s art without written consent. For me, I retain no rights. I hold on to everything I do but as far as I’m concerned I have no interest in collecting “fees” (lol) for a design that was the brainchild of someone who has already paid me for the process.
Click to expand...
I am not a "professional Designer" but I have designed several items. One of which was for Tropicana frac labels. I have let other members of the community use the design at zero charge. I do appreciate that the member or the person printing the labels has asked for permission.

David
 
I guess why ask to make fracs if your going to balk at paying?
Did you only ask cause you thought it would be free and you wanted to “do the right thing?”

Are you mad cause your paying Toby instead of Lemonzest? If LEmonzest said “sure, but you have to pay me a fee to use the artwork” would you still be mad?

And if all this bothers you then go out into the real world, contact a design agency, sign a 5 page contract, spend two days in their offices touring their successes and reviewing proofs, then pay them the $$$$ they charge, - then go back later and ask for changes to the art for a new printing and go through their “review” of both legal and design, and then see what they charge you.

Or you could just drop a few PMs here, send A few bucks, and have some pretty things.

Art is a hard thing to make a living at, it’s vague sometimes, but I wouldn’t want to live in a world without it.
I chose Engineering, it’s pretty fucking cut and dried.
 

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