Cash Game Exposed Card Reminder (1 Viewer)

[DoubleEagle]

That's how we handle it. I voted 'no' for both casino and home games.

In a casino, the dealer is not obligated to tell the player anything about exposed cards (of any kind), and any response could potentially be detrimental if the dealer was unsure or otherwise incompetent. Quite simply, it's not his job.

In home games, our dealing procedures dictate that an exposed card during the deal remains where initially dealt until returned to the top of the deck stub, where it remains exposed until it is used as the burn card (and tucked face-down under the pot edge). If using dedicated dealers, the stub never leaves the dealer's hand, so it is visible for the entire pre-flop action round -- plenty long enough for a momentarily-distracted player to see it, regardless of reason. If a self-dealt game, dealing procedures dictate that if a playing dealer puts down the deck stub for any reason, it is always covered by the dealer button -- so the exposed card still remains visible to all, while the deck is protected from any errant player actions.

But once that exposed card atop the deck stub becomes the first burn card, that information is no longer available to players, unless they are capable of remembering it. The dealer can't speak to exposed card questions, and the one-player-to-a-hand rule covers any type of response from other players.

Simple solution for a simple problem.

That’s how we do it also and no one ever asks what the exposed card was because it was there to see for an eternity.

 

[Jordan Downs]

Obviously we all have different opinions and a rational for that opinion; however, if in a home game your answer is “No.” Well I don’t know who you’re playing with in your homes, cause our home games are all friends and NEVER would any of us ever consider not reminding someone of what an exposed card was.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Obviously we all have different opinions and a rational for that opinion; however, if in a home game your answer is “No.” Well I don’t know who you’re playing with in your homes, cause our home games are all friends and NEVER would any of us ever consider not reminding someone of what an exposed card was.

When I play Dramaha with a group of friends, the rule is that no one is entitled to be told how many cards anyone else drew after the drawing round is complete.

People would constantly ask during the turn and river what other people drew, so we had to establish a rule. I can't speak to the host's thought process, but I agree with the rule. Some information in poker is supposed to be available only temporarily, and drawn cards and exposed cards fall into that category. If someone asks me, I will tell him if there was some meaningful reason other than voluntary distraction that he missed it, but not otherwise. It's part of the competitive nature of the game.

It's not fair for a player to never have had an opportunity to get information. I will concede that. In home games, sometimes people are away from the table or distracted through no fault of their own, and it makes sense to accommodate that. But that doesn't mean that a home game changes the fact that it's temporary information that no one is entitled to receive after it has been displayed. If everyone had the same opportunity, and you decided that moment was your time to …

• check up on your sports bets
• text your wife about groceries
• scroll through the /r/bigtiddygothgf subreddit
• groove to Pink Floyd with your eyes closed
• play fetch with the host's dog
• blow a fat rail of coke in the bathroom
• write a letter to your congressperson

… then you've earned your own ignorance. Everyone else made the daunting sacrifice of paying attention for 15 seconds. You chose not to, and it's no one else's job to pay attention for you. You'll live without knowing that the was exposed that one hand, and it probably won't even change your decisions. Next time, if you want that info, watch the game you're actually playing instead of PornHub.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Liked the above post, because I apparently have been missing the /r/bigtiddygothgf subreddit

 

[DoubleEagle]

When I play Dramaha with a group of friends, the rule is that no one is entitled to be told how many cards anyone else drew after the drawing round is complete.

People would constantly ask during the turn and river what other people drew, so we had to establish a rule. I can't speak to the host's thought process, but I agree with the rule. Some information in poker is supposed to be available only temporarily, and drawn cards and exposed cards fall into that category. If someone asks me, I will tell him if there was some meaningful reason other than voluntary distraction that he missed it, but not otherwise. It's part of the competitive nature of the game.

IMO, that would be correct way to do it, which is something totally different than an exposed card. Remembering what each player drew is part of the game. Very important in stud based games.

 

[CraigT78]

blow a fat rail of coke in the bathroom

I'll disagree with this one. Similar to Billy getting a beer - blowing a fat line of coke is best done in the bathroom, it's too hard to clean off of the custom felt.

 

[moose]

When I play Dramaha with a group of friends, the rule is that no one is entitled to be told how many cards anyone else drew after the drawing round is complete.

Robert's Rules of Poker handles this. For draw games, until action has occurred, players and the dealer are required to answer this question.

7. If you are asked how many cards you drew by another active player, you are obligated to respond until there has been action after the draw, and the dealer is also obligated to respond. Once there is any action after the draw, you are no longer obliged to respond and the dealer cannot respond.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Robert's Rules of Poker handles this. For draw games, until action has occurred, players and the dealer are required to answer this question.

Excellent research/knowledge Moose. I think it's easy to expand that to the exposed card question. Must answer on the same street. On following streets players are not obligated to respond, and the dealer cannot respond (though a player/dealer, I would allow).

 

[Jimulacrum]

Robert's Rules of Poker handles this. For draw games, until action has occurred, players and the dealer are required to answer this question.

Excellent. Thank you. That's only a smidge different from how we do it, but I like drawing the line there. Gives everyone one last chance to check. I don't think the case has happened yet where someone asks between the conclusion of the draw and the first action on the turn, but I'll be glad to have such a clear demarcation if it does.

 

[2jzMk3]

TLDR

I just keep it face up at the top of the burn pile so anyone can see, even if they were away from the table or whatever.

At a casino, I wouldn’t expect a dealer to memorize the card and notify folks. If they weren’t paying attention, their fault.

I just prefer super friendly home games.

 

[1A25R]

Answering during the same street make sence. If not let stretch the dealers duty

Sir, remember, there was a 5 of clubs exposed. Please consider that fact in regards of your straight draw.

 

[Jordan Downs]

When I play Dramaha with a group of friends, the rule is that no one is entitled to be told how many cards anyone else drew after the drawing round is complete.

People would constantly ask during the turn and river what other people drew, so we had to establish a rule. I can't speak to the host's thought process, but I agree with the rule. Some information in poker is supposed to be available only temporarily, and drawn cards and exposed cards fall into that category. If someone asks me, I will tell him if there was some meaningful reason other than voluntary distraction that he missed it, but not otherwise. It's part of the competitive nature of the game.

It's not fair for a player to never have had an opportunity to get information. I will concede that. In home games, sometimes people are away from the table or distracted through no fault of their own, and it makes sense to accommodate that. But that doesn't mean that a home game changes the fact that it's temporary information that no one is entitled to receive after it has been displayed. If everyone had the same opportunity, and you decided that moment was your time to …

• check up on your sports bets
• text your wife about groceries
• scroll through the /r/bigtiddygothgf subreddit
• groove to Pink Floyd with your eyes closed
• play fetch with the host's dog
• blow a fat rail of coke in the bathroom
• write a letter to your congressperson

… then you've earned your own ignorance. Everyone else made the daunting sacrifice of paying attention for 15 seconds. You chose not to, and it's no one else's job to pay attention for you. You'll live without knowing that the was exposed that one hand, and it probably won't even change your decisions. Next time, if you want that info, watch the game you're actually playing instead of PornHub.

I understand and appreciate all your points; however, that seems like a letter of the law approach to the situation. In our home games, we’ve all been friends for years, most 20+ years.

In our games we’re talking shit, needling each other on hands played, listening to music, drinking beer and having a GREAT time. We are being competitive and trying our best to felt each other but we would always inform someone of an exposed card.

Even if it was a repeat offender, negligent focus or not paying attention. I guess better put the atmosphere in our games with our friends is very relaxed and having fun. None of us are gonna go broke or get rich in the game. Average top winner will take home $500-$800 average big loser will be stuck $300-$500. In a $1/$1 NLHE home game I know that’s not big, but money is not the main purpose of our game. It’s to enjoy a game amongst good friends, felt them if we can and have a great time.

So again although I understand and appreciate all your points we just would never not remind someone in our home game of an exposed card regardless the reason.

 

[APatHand]

I definitely come down on the side of, "It is the player's responsibility to pay attention at all times or suffer the consequences of the inattention."
This includes but is not limited to: protecting their hand, knowing the bet/blind/limit, knowing the action, and not spilling their drink/food/spit. And, of course, knowing the exposed card that the delear showed to everyone and which sat, face up, on the table before it became the burn card.

 

[Gobbs]

I didn’t bother to read most responses. Maybe this has already been mentioned.

The answer is: No, the dealer should keep his/her mouth shut. The circumstances don’t matter. It doesn’t matter if the player was distracted, not paying attention, absent, wearing headphones, or tying his/her shoe. The dealer should not respond to the question. The reason is quite simple: Because dealers are supposed to keep their mouths’ shut. Other than comments intended to keep action moving and to control the table, dealers aren’t supposed to talk. Period.

Player Question: How much is in the pot?
Dealer Response: Nothing (other than to possibly spread the pot for the player to visually inspect it).

Circumstance: Flop comes out with three broadway spades.
Dealer Reaction: Nothing

Circumstance: Player doesn’t seem to know action is on them.
Dealer’s First Response: Lay open palm on table aimed at the player (never point), look at the player and try to make eye contact, and say nothing.
Dealer’s Second Response: Continue first response actions and say “Action on you, sir.”

The dealer should just not talk or answer questions (or react to situations) unless necessary. That includes asking about the card that was exposed.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I didn’t bother to read most responses. Maybe this has already been mentioned.

The answer is: No, the dealer should keep his/her mouth shut. The circumstances don’t matter. It doesn’t matter if the player was distracted, not paying attention, absent, wearing headphones, or tying his/her shoe. The dealer should not respond to the question. The reason is quite simple: Because dealers are supposed to keep their mouths’ shut. Other than comments intended to keep action moving and to control the table, dealers aren’t supposed to talk. Period.

Player Question: How much is in the pot?
Dealer Response: Nothing (other than to possibly spread the pot for the player to visually inspect it).

Circumstance: Flop comes out with three broadway spades.
Dealer Reaction: Nothing

Circumstance: Player doesn’t seem to know action is on them.
Dealer’s First Response: Lay open palm on table aimed at the player (never point), look at the player and try to make eye contact, and say nothing.
Dealer’s Second Response: Continue first response actions and say “Action on you, sir.”

The dealer should just not talk or answer questions (or react to situations) unless necessary. That includes asking about the card that was exposed.

That has been the general consensus for a card room. Does your opinion change for a home game, and does you opinion change if it is a serious vs casual home game?

 

[Gobbs]

That has been the general consensus for a card room. Does your opinion change for a home game, and does you opinion change if it is a serious vs casual home game?

Excellent questions. In a nutshell, my opinions do not change no matter if home game or even casual home game. I believe even the most casual of home games need to have a specific set of rules that are strictly followed. If not, casual games become games with hurt feelings and drama.

So, bottom line, the dealer is supposed to keep his/her mouth shut. So, keep it shut.

 

[Machine]

This is a great post and I would agree with @Jimulacrum for the most part.

With all the new members and questions I thought it would be good to bump.

IF the villain was trying to pay attention and missed it, I’d tell them.

In stud I’d ask players to fold in turn so that others have a chance to follow the action.

Otherwise I like to respond with ‘poker is a game of observation’

 

[ekricket]

poker is a game of observation’

Poker is also a game of deception.

Is it ok to tell him it was a different card than it actually was, since he wasn’t paying attention?

 

[TheLemursReturn]

Is there any reason not to just leave it face up but like 80% underneath other burn cards?

That's always been my approach, but my games are extremely casual so I'm not trying to say it's truly the right thing.

 

[jja412]

I honestly don't care if they tell him or not...I don't get worked up by that.
I voted no casino/yes home.
During self deal, I'll announce the card as it is exposed. Then on the flop I will repeat the announcement as I reveal the cards.
I use the "announcer voice" to project into people's brains. After that they should be on their own.
But if someone asks, I will tell them.
If you wanna be/play cutthroat at the casino, no biggie. I pretty much expect it.
If you act like a dick at a home game, the invite list can always be "adjusted."
Might as well be gracious to all, that way everyone can have a good time.

 

[KHarp1]

I see many people saying "no" while expressing that it's not the dealers job to blah, blah, blah. However, if its the dealers fuck up that exposed the card, then, there should be some burden on him. There should be a cutoff to that street, especially considering that at times there are reasons why a players attention could momentarily be away from the action (new player sits down, reached for his drink, tipping waitress).

 

[allforcharity]

Maybe it's better to say nothing. What if someone uses the opportunity to angle shoot? "The exposed card was King of hearts" (when in truth it was Jack). Is there a directive to announce the correct card?

 

[ChadB]

I’d say yes to both.
The dealer has the responsibility at the table to provide a fair playing environment to all players. This also includes making sure all players have the same crucial information about the hand in progress.
This ruling doesn’t have to be made to be more difficult than that.
If at showdown a player across the table shows a Jack-high-straight and the dealer announces, “Jack-high-straight” to the table but a player across the table that may not be able to see that far asks the dealer again… what does he have??? Should it be fair for the dealer to say, “I already announced it, I can’t say it again”?? Lol
If a player goes all-in and a player across the table asks how much is it to call… the dealer counts and announces $585. The player thinks and asks again, “how much is it again?” Should the dealer inform the player, “I can’t tell you, I already told you earlier, it’s up to you to call or fold”?
The dealer is merry reiterating information that should be available to any player in the hand.
Years ago when I started the casino business, the poker dealer was there to provide a fair playing environment for all players… we would call string bets (especially in seats 1 and 9/10, where it was hard for players to see that may be blocked by the dealer position, we called out action to keep the game running smoothly and efficiently.
I feel that in the past 10 years that the dealer has been removed from controlling the game and action to merely dealing the cards and sitting back and waiting for an argument to begin before trying to figure out what happened and then calling a floor supervisor over to make a ruling for something that could have been prevented if the dealer was paying attention, enforcing the rules, action and controlling the game.
The information about an exposed card that should be knowledge to everyone at the table shouldn’t be withheld at anytime during the hand.

For those who said no… what would your opinion on the time frame be in which that information should not be given out by the dealer? If the dealer announced 9-of-clubs exposed and then burns the card and a player asks, “sorry… I didn’t hear you dealer, what was the exposed card”? Should the dealer inform that player??
I’m always open to suggestions and changing my mind. If a set rule was in place at a card room that stated, an exposed card that was announced pre-flop shall not be announced again by the dealer after the flop, I’d be behind the rule 100% due to it being in writing and able to be enforced if the ruling was in question.
Without a rule in place, all information in my opinion should be available to all players anytime during the hand.

Just my 2 cents… but during the 30 years in this business, I’ve agreed and disagreed with many rules that are now in common card rooms.

 

[BGinGA]

I’d say yes to both.
The dealer has the responsibility at the table to provide a fair playing environment to all players. This also includes making sure all players have the same crucial information about the hand in progress.
This ruling doesn’t have to be made to be more difficult than that.
If at showdown a player across the table shows a Jack-high-straight and the dealer announces, “Jack-high-straight” to the table but a player across the table that may not be able to see that far asks the dealer again… what does he have??? Should it be fair for the dealer to say, “I already announced it, I can’t say it again”?? Lol
If a player goes all-in and a player across the table asks how much is it to call… the dealer counts and announces $585. The player thinks and asks again, “how much is it again?” Should the dealer inform the player, “I can’t tell you, I already told you earlier, it’s up to you to call or fold”?
The dealer is merry reiterating information that should be available to any player in the hand.
Years ago when I started the casino business, the poker dealer was there to provide a fair playing environment for all players… we would call string bets (especially in seats 1 and 9/10, where it was hard for players to see that may be blocked by the dealer position, we called out action to keep the game running smoothly and efficiently.
I feel that in the past 10 years that the dealer has been removed from controlling the game and action to merely dealing the cards and sitting back and waiting for an argument to begin before trying to figure out what happened and then calling a floor supervisor over to make a ruling for something that could have been prevented if the dealer was paying attention, enforcing the rules, action and controlling the game.
The information about an exposed card that should be knowledge to everyone at the table shouldn’t be withheld at anytime during the hand.

For those who said no… what would your opinion on the time frame be in which that information should not be given out by the dealer? If the dealer announced 9-of-clubs exposed and then burns the card and a player asks, “sorry… I didn’t hear you dealer, what was the exposed card”? Should the dealer inform that player??
I’m always open to suggestions and changing my mind. If a set rule was in place at a card room that stated, an exposed card that was announced pre-flop shall not be announced again by the dealer after the flop, I’d be behind the rule 100% due to it being in writing and able to be enforced if the ruling was in question.
Without a rule in place, all information in my opinion should be available to all players anytime during the hand.

Just my 2 cents… but during the 30 years in this business, I’ve agreed and disagreed with many rules that are now in common card rooms.

Did you even bother to read the posted responses?

 

[JustinInMN]

Is there any reason not to just leave it face up but like 80% underneath other burn cards?

That's always been my approach, but my games are extremely casual so I'm not trying to say it's truly the right thing.

I don't think it's worth the risk. Yes chances are some additional indicator could be made to minimize the risk of misunderstanding between a board card and an exposed card. But it won't be eliminated, and someone could take a very expensive action based on a misunderstanding.

Even if rare, the magnitude in this would create a very unfriendly situation.

The convention of board games is face up cards are communial. Not face up cards except for particular those covered bchipsy a lammer or certain number of chips.

Answer the question honestly before the flop, players have plenty of opportunity to note it. That strikes me as more than sufficent opportunity fair to all players. Developing a clever device in the name of going out of the way to be friendly that could accidentally create an unfriendly consequence is not good for the game long term.

ETA: Holy Necro after four years.

 

[ChadB]

Did you even bother to read the posted responses?

Wether the player was distracted by headphones or not the explanation I gave still applies to a player requesting the information about a card that was exposed during the course of the deal due to dealer error.

 

[BGinGA]

Wether the player was distracted by headphones or not the explanation I gave still applies to a player requesting the information about a card that was exposed during the course of the deal due to dealer error.

Okay, so you didn't.

 

[merkong]

In a home game what’s to stop another player from telling them what card was exposed?

If the table all “dummies up” that’s a dick move and certainly not in the spirit of a home game in my opinion.

 

[JustinInMN]

In a home game what’s to stop another player from telling them what card was exposed?

If the table all “dummies up” that’s a dick move and certainly not in the spirit of a home game in my opinion.

I don't think anything would stop, but the longer removed from the exposure, the less likely it is to be correct. The recipient of the information should understand that it comes with that grain of salt.

 

[JustinInMN]

Just and added thought on this. If you have a game where you decide you need this courtesy, you should make sure everyone follows procedure and burns cards under the pot and separate from the muck. Since the exposed card should always be the first card under the pot, you could take a brief peek at it, and turn it back face down to eliminate the confusion that would be caused by just leaving it face up for the duration of the hand.

I am still more persuaded that dealer fault or not, this is an observation the player is responsible for making and shouldn't be entitled to this information once the flop is out. A player isn't entitled to ask "who was the preflop raiser, or how much did x make it on the flop" when considering a river decision. I think this is more in that vain.