Cash Game Exposed Card Reminder (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

The situation:

Dealer exposes a card during the deal preflop. The usual procedure is followed, so that card is announced and shown to the whole table, and it becomes the first burn card.

After the flop comes out, action proceeds to a player who has been distracted by his phone and headphones the whole time. "What was the exposed card?" he asks.

(I realize that this may have a different answer for some people depending on whether it's a casino or home game, so I've structured the poll to account for that.)

 

[pltrgyst]

No and no. You can't fix stupidity, and you shouldn't feel obligated to try. Let him pay for his lesson...

 

[DoubleEagle]

This happens occasionally. Some dealers make a bigger point of it when announcing the exposed card than others. I see no harm in telling the player what the card was.

What if soneone was away from the table when it happened and just walked up in time to play his hand? Not going to tell him? I dont think so.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Why not?

 

[ChipTalker]

No and no as well however want to add ... Is it ok for a fellow player to help a brother out?

 

[DoubleEagle]

Show me the rule that says the dealer is not allowed to repeat what the exposed card was.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Serious question - I don't understand why the answer would ever be no?
What if you couldn't remember if it were a or a ?

 

[Jimulacrum]

What if soneone was away from the table when it happened and just walked up in time to play his hand? Not going to tell him? I dont think so.

If this is in a casino, he shouldn't be in the hand if he was away from the table during any part of it, so I'm assuming you mean in a home game. In that case, I could call this one of the rare exceptions when it's okay for the dealer (or whoever) to tell the person.

Why not?

For starters:

1. It's not (and shouldn't be) part of the dealer's job to memorize exposed cards or hunt around in the burns to find out what they were. The dealer could easily accidentally give the wrong information, or just not be able to answer. This alone would make it an awkward/impossible rule to enforce.

2. It's the player's responsibility to remember each round's action, exposed cards, and anything else that happened. This is most evident outside of Hold'em, in games like Stud and Draw. Should the dealer be expected to tell a player about the board cards that were folded by other players, or remind him how many cards people drew last round? Not only is he not expected to do that, but it would be way out of line. IMO, cards exposed during the deal should be governed by the same principle.

 

[DoubleEagle]

If this is in a casino, he shouldn't be in the hand if he was away from the table during any part of it, so I'm assuming you mean in a home game.

No. Suppose he was returning from the bathroom, got there after the exposed card but still in time to play his hand.

 

[ChipTalker]

They dont deal cards unless in seat at every casino i have been to.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Next question -
For you guys that say NO. Do you get upset with the dealer if he answers the question?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

If this is in a casino, he shouldn't be in the hand if he was away from the table during any part of it, so I'm assuming you mean in a home game. In that case, I could call this one of the rare exceptions when it's okay for the dealer (or whoever) to tell the person.



For starters:

1. It's not (and shouldn't be) part of the dealer's job to memorize exposed cards or hunt around in the burns to find out what they were. The dealer could easily accidentally give the wrong information, or just not be able to answer. This alone would make it an awkward/impossible rule to enforce.

2. It's the player's responsibility to remember each round's action, exposed cards, and anything else that happened. This is most evident outside of Hold'em, in games like Stud and Draw. Should the dealer be expected to tell a player about the board cards that were folded by other players, or remind him how many cards people drew last round? Not only is he not expected to do that, but it would be way out of line. IMO, cards exposed during the deal should be governed by the same principle.

sometimes the dealers show it so quickly you can't really see it Jim. I think that information should be available to everyone, and if I was looking the other way or otherwise distracted when someone else had a card exposed (when its not my turn to act) its not my fault.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I said no in both.

As Jim already pointed out, in the casino it's not the dealer's job to repeat the exposed card any more than they should remember and repeat the action on previous streets.

In my home game, f@*% you for wearing headphones at the table. Take 'em off and start socializing, asshole.

 

[Poker Zombie]

No. Suppose he was returning from the bathroom, got there after the exposed card but still in time to play his hand.

In a tournament his hand is dead when the last hole card is dealt, there is no "wait until it's his turn to fold". In a cash game, if he's not at his seat, he does not get cards.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I said no in both.

As Jim already pointed out, in the casino it's not the dealer's job to remember the exposed card any more than they should remember and repeat the action on previous streets.

In my home game, f@*% you for wearing headphones at the table. Take 'em off and start socializing, asshole.

I agree that wearing a headphone is probably bad for the game, but what if you had your head turned socializing with your neighbor, or reaching back to get a drink off the tray behind you when the card was exposed. Would you feel the same way?

 

[Jimulacrum]

sometimes the dealers show it so quickly you can't really see it Jim. I think that information should be available to everyone, and if I was looking the other way or otherwise distracted when someone else had a card exposed (when its not my turn to act) its not my fault.

Sometimes people fold so quickly in Stud that you don't see their door card. Should the dealer be obligated to memorize it and remind anyone who didn't see it? Or in the case of burn cards, if he doesn't remember, should he dig it out of the burn pile?

I know what you mean about dealers only showing the card briefly, but my solution would be to instead have the floor supervise them to make sure they're doing their jobs properly.

Also, you're being very generous to the Villain in our story. I say "Villain" specifically because I have zero sympathy for people who deliberately block their ability to see, hear, and process what's happening around them and then expect everyone else to pick up the slack. This guy wasn't just temporarily distracted by some organic course of events at the table; he chose distraction as a way of life. AFAIC, if you do that and it robs you of information or induces a mistake, you have no one to blame but yourself, and no cardroom or home game should do anything unusual to help you out.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I agree that wearing a headphone is probably bad for the game, but what if you had your head turned socializing with your neighbor, or reaching back to get a drink off the tray behind you when the card was exposed. Would you feel the same way?

Nope, in that case I have no problem telling the player what the exposed card was (and have done it many times).

I will almost never penalize someone for socializing in my home games. It takes multiple egregious instances of severely slowing the game down before I'll even get testy about it, and I don't think I've ever done more than that.

 

[Poker Zombie]

While I'm inclined to say No to both the casino and the home game, if a player asks and another player answers, I'm not going to issue a warning for violating "the one player to a hand" rule.

If the dealer exposes a card I don't mind the dealer clarifying what the exposed card was, if it is still the same street. If the player was distracted (ordering a drink or tipping the waitress) they might miss the card, but hear someone say mumble-mumble was exposed. This player should ask what card was exposed, before taking their action. If they looked down on Aces got excited and raised but didn't ask preflop, they don't get to ask post flop.

It they were so distracted that they didn't hear there was a card exposed, they wouldn't likely know to ask about it post-flop.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Serious question - I don't understand why the answer would ever be no?
What if you couldn't remember if it were a or a ?

Then that's your problem. The dealer isn't there to memorize the details of the hand for you and recount them on demand. He is only there to present the cards, bets, etc. and clarify any current goings-on.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If the dealer exposes a card I don't mind the dealer clarifying what the exposed card was, if it is still the same street. If the player was distracted (ordering a drink or tipping the waitress) they might miss the card, but hear someone say mumble-mumble was exposed. This player should ask what card was exposed, before taking their action. If they looked down on Aces got excited and raised but didn't ask preflop, they don't get to ask post flop.

I'm okay with the dealer telling the player in a case where the presentation of the exposed card just happened and he missed it by seconds, but I do feel there needs to be a cutoff. The close of the affected round seems like the best place for it to be.

 

[DarPodo]

I say yes, but it’s only if the dealer knows the card. If the dealer isn’t 100% sure then ‘I don’t remember’ is appropriate.

 

[CraigT78]

Yes. Refusal to do so and I dub thee an asshole.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yes. Refusal to do so and I dub thee an asshole.

Not really looking to make it an issue of personal judgment. I made this thread to discuss what the rule should be. IMO, it should never be a decision that the dealer gets to make, and thus never a point of judgment for or against the dealer.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I say yes, but it’s only if the dealer knows the card. If the dealer isn’t 100% sure then ‘I don’t remember’ is appropriate.

If I'm a dealer in a room with this rule, my answer is "I don't remember" 100% of the time.

 

[CraigT78]

Not really looking to make it an issue of personal judgment. I made this thread to discuss what the rule should be. IMO, it should never be a decision that the dealer gets to make, and thus never a point of judgment for or against the dealer.

I get it. This was from a home game perspective. Casino - house rule applies.

 

[Kyle]

Opening post says the player was distracted with his phone and had headphones on. I can't stand these players.

If I'm at this table and that players asks me I am saying I dont remember. If the dealer chooses to let him know so be it but I am never helping these players. Can't stand them, they slow down the game and look really stupid at the table.

I am there to try and felt that guy not help him because he is too good to pay attention to the game with all his stupid gadgets.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I get it. This was from a home game perspective. Casino - house rule applies.

Even in a home game, it should be governed by a rule. It's bad form to have each player decide during his own deal whether to tell. You have to be very specific about what information players are and are not entitled to be told, or it quickly becomes a free-for-all.

The first time this question came up for me was in Dramaha. Are all players entitled to know how many cards everyone drew after the drawing round has ended? I could see an argument either way, but I landed on "no," for the same reasons it's a "no" for me for the exposed card.

 

[CraigT78]

Even in a home game, it should be governed by a rule. It's bad form to have each player decide during his own deal whether to tell. You have to be very specific about what information players are and are not entitled to be told, or it quickly becomes a free-for-all.

The first time this question came up for me was in Dramaha. Are all players entitled to know how many cards everyone drew after the drawing round has ended? I could see an argument either way, but I landed on "no," for the same reasons it's a "no" for me for the exposed card.

This isn’t the same as an exposed card IMO. If a card is exposed because the dealer screwed up. Anyone should be able to ask. How many cards discarded is part of the hand. apples to oranges.

 

[DarPodo]

If I'm a dealer in a room with this rule, my answer is "I don't remember" 100% of the time.

If the poll question was ‘What should the rule be?’ then I would agree on the ‘No’ 100%. Keeps it simple and fair. Since it’s open to dealer’s choice of what to do, I think it’s fine either way. If I had a choice as dealer, I might be kinder to the player who tips well and asks, and then give an ‘I don’t remember’ to the asshole who doesn’t tip and is bad for the table.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This isn’t the same as an exposed card IMO. If a card is exposed because the dealer screwed up. Anyone should be able to ask. How many cards discarded is part of the hand. apples to oranges.

Both cases refer to relevant information players may use to inform their decisions. They also both refer to information that appears only briefly at the table and then vanishes, and thus may not be remembered by everyone, including the dealer.

This all raises some questions for me, and questions like this are part of the reason I land on the "no" side. I direct them at anyone saying the dealer should tell the guy the card, not just you, Craig.

How long after the dealer's presentation of the exposed card should the dealer have to tell them what it was? That round only, the next round, or all the way to showdown?

If the dealer doesn't remember the card, should he fish it out of the burn pile?

If more than one card was exposed (e.g., by a player folding sloppily), should the dealer have to memorize and recount all of them on demand too? If they're in the muck and he can't remember them, what then?