The dealer acted out of turn. What would you do? (1 Viewer)

[shevasoccer]

I am relatively new to casino poker and would like your thoughts on what to do in this misdeal/dealer acting out of turn situation. I am not familiar with the formal rules. Did I play this correctly?

8 handed 1/2 game at the local casino
Hero HJ:

Preflop:
BU $5 straddle
SB raises $20 (~$200 stack)
BB calls $20 (~$600 stack)
Hero HJ calls $20 (~$600 stack)
BU and all other players fold
Pot: $65

Flop:
SB bets $35
BB fold
Hero HJ calls $35
Pot: $135

Turn:
SB check
Hero HJ no action

As the dealer begins to deal the river, I say I am yet to act. The dealer exposes the on the river.

SB: looking away from the table with headphones on preoccupied with paying for his drink
Dealer: Flips face down
“Just so you know, it is going back” - Dealer
“What does that mean?” - Hero
“Do what you were going to do on the turn regardless of the river” - Dealer

Hero all in for ~150 in the SB stack
SB folds

I do not know if the SB saw the river or my interaction with the dealer. I showed the table my hand so no one would think I was angling my opponent. I was trying to convey that either way, I had a big draw and wanted the fold equity. Both the SB and BB say they folded pairs better than mine.

This dealer has dealt my game before and is both an excellent dealer and a winning poker player in bigger games. The button was sitting kind of awkwardly between the BU and SB players, so I can understand why this mistake was made, but should the dealer be talking to me at all in this situation? And what discretion do they have to muck the exposed on the river? Would you also shove against what felt like a pair on that board? Should I have just shut up and taken the 6 high flush on the river?

 

[Jimulacrum]

The is a premature card and cannot play. If the hand proceeds to the river, it would be shuffled back into the stub and a fresh river dealt. The dealer should inform you of this for clarity.

I would shove here too. Big draw against an opponent showing weakness; your pair of sixes may even turn out to be good. With the size of the pot almost equal to the size of your stack, it's a no-brainer (unless you have a super-sticky opponent or something).

As to this:

Should I have just shut up and taken the 6 high flush on the river?

No, you should not have used the opportunity to shoot an unethical angle.

 

[JustinInMN]

“Just so you know, it is going back” - Dealer
“What does that mean?” - Hero
“Do what you were going to do on the turn regardless of the river” - Dealer

should the dealer be talking to me at all in this situation?

The dealer is obliged to let the table know the is going back in the stub per the rules. However, I see where his second statement is confusing, he is explaining that your best course of action is whatever you were planning BEFORE the exposed card because the must go back to the stub. If the is allowed to stand you have a huge advantage.

And what discretion do they have to muck the exposed on the river?

They have no discretion. The rules call for the to be returned to the stub and shuffled before a new river is dealt. The new river was not necessary given the outcome of completing the action on the turn.

The proper procedure is that the dealer should be calling the floor over. The floor is going to make the ruling that the is going back in the deck to be reshuffled so it has "a chance to reappear" (Fun fact, first time I saw this procedure in a casino, the same card did in fact come back, hasn't happened since), but the turn action must be completed first. If the river is necessary the dealer is going to shuffle, cut, and deal the top card as the river. (The burn card for the river is already down.)

Would you also shove against what felt like a pair on that board?

I don't think I would let the exposed card change my play. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out the shove was a decent play given the others were able to fold better holdings . But if you were going to check behind, you still have the same odds of improving with the being reshuffled as you would have otherwise.

Should I have just shut up and taken the 6 high flush on the river?

This 100% would have been you committing an angle.

 

[shevasoccer]

This is very helpful thank you. I didn't understand what "going back" meant. I thought I had lost the as a potential out. In the moment, asking any more from the dealer also felt like revealing too much about the nature of my hand.

They have no discretion. The rules call for the to be returned to the stub and shuffled before a new river is dealt. The new river was not necessary given the outcome of completing the action on the turn.

For the card to be returned to the stub, the dealer would have to agree that I didn't complete my action on the turn. The dealer never explained to me whether they lost track of my position or if they were perfectly aware that I was in position and thought I had checked. In that latter case, would the floor default to the dealer's discretion with the potential for the to remain the river card?

 

[Jimulacrum]

In the moment, asking any more from the dealer also felt like revealing too much about the nature of my hand.

This is one of the tough things about dealer errors. You want to know what's going on, but asking could screw you. Dealer's phrasing could have been clearer, though to be fair, this whole procedure can be confusing and off-putting to explain to players. A lot of people seem to believe that shuffling a card back into the stub is absolutely forbidden, when in fact it's utterly standard in a spot like this.

For the card to be returned to the stub, the dealer would have to agree that I didn't complete my action on the turn. The dealer never explained to me whether they lost track of my position or if they were perfectly aware that I was in position and thought I had checked. In that latter case, would the floor default to the dealer's discretion with the potential for the to remain the river card?

The floor would ask the dealer if he saw you act. Unless you did something that he could have mistaken as a check, he most likely just missed you or got distracted by something and dealt out the on autopilot, and he'd have to admit that.

Since the whole reason the floor is there is that you said you hadn't acted, there's no room for discretion here unless someone wants to accuse you of angling (e.g., an unethical player without the flush draw might hate the turn and pretend he didn't check when in fact he did check).

Turn action was not complete, so cannot stand, ever, for any reason, and the only factor to sort out is whether you acted or not.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is very helpful thank you. I didn't understand what "going back" meant. I thought I had lost the as a potential out. In the moment, asking any more from the dealer also felt like revealing too much about the nature of my hand.



For the card to be returned to the stub, the dealer would have to agree that I didn't complete my action on the turn. The dealer never explained to me whether they lost track of my position or if they were perfectly aware that I was in position and thought I had checked. In that latter case, would the floor default to the dealer's discretion with the potential for the to remain the river card?

Correct, if the ruling is you checked before the card came out then the would stand.

The dealer dealt the river for a reason so he assumed you had acted. You did mention the button may have been in a confusing spot, that certainly could have caused the dealer to assume your opponent closed the action.

 

[AWenger]

Should I have just shut up and taken the 6 high flush on the river?

This is a moot question, because as others have pointed out, the correct dealer action here is to shuffle the accidentally exposed 10 of diamonds back into the deck and deal a new river card once betting action on the turn is complete. So there wouldn't necessarily automatically be a flush to 'take' on the river once the dealer put it back into the deck.

This situation of a dealer exposing a card early doesn't come up too often, and I was confused by it the first time it ever happened to me -- 'but I want the 10 of diamonds to remain' but it makes sense that the player(s) don't get to choose if the accidentally exposed card remains, as it may benefit one player over another. An accidentally exposed dealer card before action is complete will always go back in the deck, but not mucked, to preserve the same chance of it being dealt again.

 

[WedgeRock]

And what discretion do they have to muck the exposed on the river?

None. A pre-exposed card is shuffled back in.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is a moot question, because as others have pointed out, the correct dealer action here is to shuffle the accidentally exposed 10 of diamonds back into the deck and deal a new river card once betting action on the turn is complete. So there wouldn't necessarily automatically be a flush to 'take' on the river once the dealer put it back into the deck.

My guess is the @shevasoccer meant if he didn't say anything about being skipped would the result have been the staying in play?

 

[Jimulacrum]

My guess is the @shevasoccer meant if he didn't say anything about being skipped would the result have been the staying in play?

This is my interpretation too. OP wanted to know if he could get away with not saying anything and taking the .

To me, this would be close (but not quite the same) as if everyone were to misread hands on the end and the dealer incorrectly awards you the pot, and you're the only one who sees the error, but you scoop up the pot and say nothing.

Is it specifically cheating? Hard to make that case because the issue is a failure to act, rather than an action. But it's absolutely unethical and should never be done. If someone I'm playing with were to do this, I would lose a lot of trust in that person and would probably mention it to the host (or if I'm the host, give the player a mental strike en route to being uninvited).

 

[Taghkanic]

This dealer has dealt my game before and is both an excellent dealer and a winning poker player in bigger games.

1) I’m amazed you found the one dealer on earth who is also a winning player. Unicorn!

2) The 10d is not necessarily a good card for hero. It probably is good. But there are plenty of better flushes possible in the villain’s range, especially QdXd combos. So, angling to get the 10d is not an automatic winner…

 

[Jimulacrum]

But there are plenty of better flushes possible in the villain’s range, especially QdXd combos. So, angling to get the 10d is not an automatic winner…

It would be poetic justice for a player to angle his way to keeping the river card only to get busted by a bigger flush.

An experienced angler would, at showdown, argue that he didn't check on the turn after all and should get to redo his turn action and get a new river.