$2/$5 with KK (7 Viewers)

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monkeydog

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Playing $2/$5
I'm sitting on $385 after a quiet two hours.
Villain is loose and passive. I've seen him call all to the river with bottom pair no kicker, and stack off on a four straight board with a medium pair.

SB $2
BB $5
UTG+1 $15
UTG+2 calls $15
Hero LJ raise to $50 with KK
Villain HJ calls $50
All others fold.

Heads up to the flop.

$137 in the pot, I have $335 behind, villain covers

Flop is 8 7 10 rainbow.

Hero?
 
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What position are you? What position is villain? Is villain one of the initial raise/callers?

You can raise bigger pre - rule of thumb is 3x open plus each call, and another if you’re OOP, so around 60 would be better.

You’ve seen him call down with bottom pair and on straight boards so… time to take him to value town.

Raising bigger pre also helps get the SPR down so you can get the money in before the runout gets too scary, though you’re starting the hand shallow-ish already.
 
I’m assuming you’re OOP, against loose passive villain and a small SPR you can just go bet bet bet to get all the money in.
 
If there's one thing Hungry Horse Poker's poker channel has thought me it's that recs overstab when checked to and play their cards fairly heads up. Check to villain. If he bets small - call. This would indicate one pair hands such as AT, KT, A8, A7, underpairs and you want him to put money in and not scare him off. If he bets around pot, this would indicate a bigger hand such as made straight, set or two pair. It is also possible he has pair with straight draw such as T9, 89, 79. I would consider folding against a big bet here actually, since he's normally so passive, but I most likely would've peeled to see what he does on turn. I assume he would've 4-bet overpairs pre here? (JJ/QQ/KK/AA)
 
Rakrul said:
If there's one thing Hungry Horse Poker's poker channel has thought me it's that recs overstab when checked to and play their cards fairly heads up
Click to expand...
One of his questions is “is this flop likely to get stabbed” which encompasses a lot of things. Is the board wet and dynamic? Who is your opponent? Aggressive or passive?

Since the villain is passive, it’s much better to bet yourself since it’s unlikely villain will put in money for you.
 
Hero has a range advantage, being more likely to have the premium hands (TT+, AJ+, etc.), but villain has a significant nuts advantage, holding almost all of the hands that are very strong and could get stronger (77, 88, TT, T7, T8, T9, T6, 9T, 98, 97, TJ, etc. etc.), especially being "loose and passive." Villain also has lots of misses (QJ, KQ, A3+, etc).

I'm check-calling flop and evaluating later streets. Not getting attached to this hand. So many bad runouts for one pair, into a range and player type that are way more likely to hit this flop hard.
 
dmoney said:
Hero has a range advantage, being more likely to have the premium hands (TT+, AJ+, etc.), but villain has a significant nuts advantage, holding almost all of the hands that are very strong and could get stronger (77, 88, TT, T7, T8, T9, T6, 9T, 98, 97, TJ, etc. etc.), especially being "loose and passive." Villain also has lots of misses (QJ, KQ, A3+, etc).

I'm check-calling flop and evaluating later streets. Not getting attached to this hand. So many bad runouts for one pair, into a range and player type that are way more likely to hit this flop hard.
Click to expand...
I getcha, but if he's loose and passive and regularly stacking off with crap holdings I would love to give him an opportunity to do so, and get some money in before the board gets scarier.

I'm definitely worried if he raises but I don't see a reason to be worried yet and can't expect him to bet for us.
 
The money is going in on the turn regardless unless a flush comes in or another straight scare card comes. $150 to go now, jam on the turn. If they want to gamble to try and get there, make them pay for it early and often.

If they snap jam and turn over J9, 69, 10/8, or 8/7, mumble under your breath about them being a donkey and rebuy.
 
very interesting problem.

Before deciding your action, (Bet or Check) (and the amount to bet). what are you going to doing on further streets?

If a 9 hits the turn, will put him on a jack and still bet check then fold to his bet? and if he bets, will you call, fold, raise
What if the board pairs the turn - will you put him on trips and then Bet, check , or fold to his bet? and if he bets, will you call, fold, raise?
What if the turn is an Ace, will you put him on an Ace and will you still bet check then fold to his bet? and if he bets, will you call, fold, raise?

Do you put him on a set in any of this? or JJ or QQ, and if a J or Q appear will you put them on a set and ...etc. etc. etc.
So - as you can see the decision tree grows and grows.

What lead out bet amount from you makes you pot committed, if called by the villain? That is key amount for you to consider if you can mathematically get away from the hand or not.

So the question is for you to answer.

1 line of action is to not think about any of this, and Jam your stack and if hit the flop or sucks out, then you just pay off with the over pair, if he folds - you win some money, if he calls and your hand is stronger you win even more money.

So why make it easy on him by betting 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, pot or checking to him.

If he is loose passive - he has a broad range - lots of middling cards connectors and big cards, pairs, etc - like normal.

you are not too deep for a 2/5 game only 335 ish behind, and I love pressure, with 135 in the pot - of course - I would lead out and jam all-in with these stack sizes. Your Pot commitment point is so close to anything you bet and get called, so when the turn arrives - you are already pot committed, no matter what comes out, so make that bet now instead of later. Since you have no experience or formal range to apply to this player, then all the Decision tree info goes out the door.

anyway - that's what I would do, if you and the villain were deeper stacked then the decision tree would apply.

But - what do I know...
 
I think jamming flop folds out hands we beat (like a 10) and only gets called by hands that beat us. We could probably even get called by an 8 on the flop.

We are super short, and I don’t think we are really folding any turns after a $100+ flop bet, but I don’t want to fold out worse hands that will call the flop.
 
GTO wiz wise it makes sense to check the flop since this board smashes a normal 3-bet cold caller’s range. But since we know he’s likely to call down with any piece of the board, I think an exploitative play of bet/bet (jam) is mandatory.

Also, we started the hand 77 bbs effective. If he wants to cold call 3-bets with T7o to bink two pair, good for him.

I’m betting 80-90 on the flop and the rest on almost any turn.
 
the SPR on the flop is only 2.5 and you have an over pair. You're honestly already mostly committed to this pot. The two lines I'm considering here are 1/2 pot to set up a turn jam with a PSB behind, or just go ahead and jam. Absent any read besides "loose passive" I probably just go ahead and jam, they aren't going to bet for me, and if I bet and they raise I'm still gonna feel like I have to call it off so might as well be the one to push.
 
Thanks for all the comments so far, they are very helpful.

Hero leads for $75
Villain raises to $200

Hero?
 
monkeydog said:
Thanks for all the comments so far, they are very helpful.

Hero leads for $75
Villain raises to $200

Hero?
Click to expand...
mmm When you say loose passive, has he done this before? Or is he check/calling his way to those rivers listed in OP? Have we seen him raise before with or without the nuts? And do we think he's the type to bet again if we check next street?

When I see someone that calls loose preflop then gets aggressive when they're usually asleep at the wheel, this is probably an eye roll fold. We could be drawing slim or dead. A call is probably fine but if we've seen them call down with weird pairs but now they're raising, I think its alarm bells.
 
demonnic said:
the SPR on the flop is only 2.5 and you have an over pair. You're honestly already mostly committed to this pot. The two lines I'm considering here are 1/2 pot to set up a turn jam with a PSB behind, or just go ahead and jam. Absent any read besides "loose passive" I probably just go ahead and jam, they aren't going to bet for me, and if I bet and they raise I'm still gonna feel like I have to call it off so might as well be the one to push.
Click to expand...

You took the words right out of my mouth—SPR was the first thing I thought of too. With it being so low, this is a jam spot. The only question is whether you do it now or wait until the turn, and honestly, that’s a coin flip.The SPR on the flop is only 2.5 and you’re holding an overpair. You’re honestly already mostly committed to this pot. The two lines I’d consider here are either betting around half-pot to set up a clean turn jam with a pot-sized bet behind, or just jamming now. With no real read beyond “loose passive,” I’d probably just go ahead and jam. This player isn’t going to bet for you, and if you bet and they raise, you’re going to feel pot-committed anyway—so you might as well be the one applying pressure.

Personally, I’d lead out for around $90–$110. If I get called, great—assess the turn and likely rip it. If I get raised, then I can at least pause and consider what hands might realistically beat me. The only turn card that might force a change in plan is a 9, but even then, if I’ve already committed ~$150 with ~$130 behind, I’m likely not folding anyway.

The one thing that would really help in refining the right line here is more detail on how this villain plays draws, middling pairs, and low-equity hands. Does he fire out with draws even when they’re weak? Does he play ego poker and get stickier when facing pressure? Or does he have a breaking point when chasing trash? Those tendencies can tell you a lot about the best way to get max value or protect your stack. To me, it can literally be the difference between jamming it all in or saving it for another hand. 9 out of 10 times, I'm going to jam and get my money in good. Does villian win sometimes? Of course. Did I do my job to protect my hand and give it the value it deserved? Absolutely. Doesn't mean I'm always going to take it down with them. Matter of fact, the last club tournament I played, I got jammed into preflop by the short-stack and looked down at KK. I had this weird feeling in my stomach that this wasn't going to end well. Obvious call. Flop comes with a 10 in the window and another 10 on the river hahahah That's poker man.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
When I see someone that calls loose preflop then gets aggressive when they're usually asleep at the wheel, this is probably an eye roll fold. We could be drawing slim or dead,
Click to expand...

We have someone that plays like this all the time but normally when he gets agro post-flop, he's usually just trying to bully the habitual folders out of that hand and take it down.
 
JMC9389 said:
It depends on if you believe him or not. Would he do this with a 10? If the answer is yes, jam.
Click to expand...

This ties back to what I mentioned earlier—I’d need to mentally replay his previous hands, whether I was involved or not, and use that to guide my decision. I know it sounds cliché, but it really highlights how important it is to pay attention to the action even when you’re not in the hand… instead of zoning out on Candy Crush lol
 
Hands we beat that do this also include 99 and JJ, passive villains certainly just call with those hands pre-flop.

How big is villains stack? Is he committing a lot of his stack here or is he deeper?
 
Tight_Lay_DOWN said:
Are you considering making a Tight_Lay_DOWN???
Click to expand...

That would classify as one but if I'm in his shoes,

200.gif
 
You jam.........you don't have the stack to play out the hand. You might get a call out of a loose player (ex. villian holding A8) thinking that you're position playing. Anything else is letting a rat in the house.
 
horseshoez said:
We have someone that plays like this all the time but normally when he gets agro post-flop, he's usually just trying to bully the habitual folders out of that hand and take it down.
Click to expand...
Fair, thats the first half of my post, does this guy make a habit of this. Maybe hes passive with any pair but fires with air, thats a good point.
 

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