MTT: KK in UTG+2, 6-handed (2 Viewers)

[Kain8]

I fold.

Spoiler: Villain follows through on his promise and shows

 

[foreverdev]

I like the fold, given all the dynamics at play. If you’re viewed as a skilled player you probably have tournament edge. Going into an all in here, it’s not looking great. His range is QQ+ based on what you’ve said here and if that’s the case your equity is 50% here. Don’t 4 bet for stacks because your edge against the field is better than 50/50. I am, in this rare situation, only calling is 3bet here and re evaluating on flop. You might be able to get more intel post flop or even make it to showdown cheap.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Don’t 4 bet for stacks because your edge against the field is better than 50/50.

This has been one of the guiding principles that has helped me lay down kings a bunch of times. Even in cash games, same idea. There are much better spots to get my money in the middle.

KK is a good hand in a lot of spots but is still just the second nuts for openers. If you can fold 79 on an 8TJ board to the right sequence of action, you can fold KK preflop too.

 

[JustinInMN]

As to the bet-size suggestion of ~7K I'm seeing in the replies, why that size? I feel like that size commits me for stacks no matter what happens.

My reasoning for going 5K was mostly that I would still have plenty of room to get away if he did shove. If he just called, I could be confident he didn't have aces, and he'd be stuck committing his stack on a variety of boards with worse than KK, or folding a huge pot that I'd be happy to take down uncontested.

I like this sizing and I don't think it commits you if you started the hand with 20K, you can fold here and still have 13K. But I suppose if you are thinking 4-bet fold a little smaller sizing of 5500-6000 probably does the same job.

And to me, this is the right alignment of variables considering the opponent where I would fold KK preflop if I get raised after putting in a 4-bet here. But otherwise, against an average villain, I am using that 7K sizing hoping to induce the 5-bet-shove and play for stacks.

I don't hate just flatting the 3-bet pre as well, and trying to play post flop. This might be a good spot for a "stop-and-go", flatting out of position pre with the plan to donk the flop. (Unless an ace falls, in which case you save some money.) Then if you get raised on a garbage board, you can probably fold KK pretty comfortably. Maybe you give a pot away here and there if the nit happens to have the bottom of his range, QQ.

 

[MrCatPants]

I once made this fold confidently against a similar player that i had literally never seen 4bet plus before and they flipped over JJ.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I like this sizing and I don't think it commits you if you started the hand with 20K, you can fold here and still have 13K. But I suppose if you are thinking 4-bet fold a little smaller sizing of 5500-6000 probably does the same job.

This is the second time I can remember that I used a near-min-click raise sizing with KK to suss out aces.

My thinking in a spot like this—with a tight opponent who has just raised in a way that narrows his likely range to AA, KK, QQ—is that it's deep enough that I wouldn't expect the opponent to blast off with just QQ, so my min-click will likely just get called when I'm ahead. When he comes over the top, he has either AA or KK, in a ratio of 6:1 given the combos, and I can safely fold. The min-click looks just as strong as a 7K raise, if not stronger, which is part of the point.

The other aspect of this hand I found interesting was the speechplay. It wasn't much, but it gave me clarity on the question I wanted to answer. The way he responded to me asking if he had aces was partly in words and partly in face/body language, and it all screamed strength, with a hint of him being surprised by me naming his specific hand.

There's a certain level of comfort some players only get to when they have the nuts on any given round. It's like a switch has flipped in their head that tells them they're free to do anything, and it shows in how they respond to bets and talking. That's usually what I'm trying to figure out with speechplay. It's not typically about the words the player says, but more his apparent level of comfort.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I once made this fold confidently against a similar player that i had literally never seen 4bet plus before and they flipped over JJ.

The one time I folded KK preflop and found out I was wrong for sure was against QQ.

We were playing a final league event that started with nosebleed stacks. I believe I had ~170K, and we were still in the 200/400 level. Came to me, I raised it to 1,400, and the guy two seats down (who usually plays ABC tight in raised pots and conservatively in general) shoved for a huge stack.

I think I had him covered, but it was close enough that I'd be crippled if I called off and was wrong, so I dumped it. I had enough of an edge on the field that it made no sense to flush 150K or whatever against a massive overbet shove that could easily be aces. It would be just like this guy to do that too.

But nope. He made the big shove with queens because there was a bonus payout for winning with certain pairs, and QQ was still available. (The bonus was like 20; compare to top prizes of 800/600/400/200, so he risked a lot to win a little. That's part of why I didn't really factor the bonus prizes into my decision. Didn't make sense to gamble his whole stake in the hopes of one of those small prizes.)

IIRC I went on to win the final event, so I felt pretty vindicated about saving my chips there, even if I would have been ahead.

 

[JustinInMN]

The min-click looks just as strong as a 7K raise, if not stronger, which is part of the point.

Understood, I tend to try and "normalize" my sizing just so I can make sure my opposition has doubt as to whether or not I am calling it off. But this only matters if you think your opponent will look for sizing tells anyway. Nothing wrong with going for a smaller size in this example and if there's ever an opponent that you can play exploitivly, it's one this tight. So as long as you aren't tipping that small size = you are willing to fold (hello out of context thread), you wouldn't need to worry about villain being able to just shove your brains out with ATC.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Understood, I tend to try and "normalize" my sizing just so I can make sure my opposition has doubt as to whether or not I am calling it off. But this only matters if you think your opponent will look for sizing tells anyway. Nothing wrong with going for a smaller size in this example and if there's ever an opponent that you can play exploitivly, it's one this tight. So as long as you aren't tipping that small size = you are willing to fold (hello out of context thread), you wouldn't need to worry about villain being able to just shove your brains out with ATC.

I make fair use of min-click-sized raises, enough that I'm not too concerned about revealing that I might fold (and here, I'm not that concerned about anyone reading a bet-sizing tell). I might have done the same with AA in the spot the OP is about.

 

[Thomacetti]

There is 3600 in the pot after the raise from Villain, something that not often done by him/her.
So range is already capped to big pairs (10's up....AK, AQs AJs, A10s A5s)

Hero needs to bet enough to sniff out his/her range, so he bets about 7K to shake out the suited aces and 1010, JJ since he comits to 1/3 of his stack pre.
When he insta-jams...the hero folds unless you see the Villain push with KK or QQ, AKs....since that is the only range left besides AA that could push here.

Depends...i'm ALWAYS folding this in mid stakes MTT (WSOP, WPT, ...), local, lower stake and online I will always call and rebuy if needed.
It just screams aces...(we are still +50BB deep)

If not...the old mantra for MTT's 'fold and live to fold again'

Understood, I tend to try and "normalize" my sizing just so I can make sure my opposition has doubt as to whether or not I am calling it off. But this only matters if you think your opponent will look for sizing tells anyway. Nothing wrong with going for a smaller size in this example and if there's ever an opponent that you can play exploitivly, it's one this tight. So as long as you aren't tipping that small size = you are willing to fold (hello out of context thread), you wouldn't need to worry about villain being able to just shove your brains out with ATC.

I love this as Villain, ideal to play a wider range and see a flop for cheap, If you bet 5K, I only need to call 2.6K for a 10K pot.
That call is profitable for hands that could crush your kings when an ace of 2 or worse 3 suited cards hit the flop.

At least 7K imho