MTT: KK in UTG+2, 6-handed (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

Situation is a MTT with 2 tables, 6 players at each. Starting stacks are 20K with a "handicap" bonus that varies from 500 to 6K chips, depending on how you did last time. We've played one round so far, but stacks are still pretty close to starting stacks.

Blinds are 200/400 with an ante of 100 (so 1,200 chips in the pot to start). No one is especially aggressive or anything at the table, and Villain ends up being the only relevant player.

Hero has a table image of a skilled player with a maniac streak, willing to gamble a lot. Villain does not generally make a lot of preflop raises and only rarely 3-bets.

Villain is the SB. Hero is UTG+2.
Folds to Hero.
Hero looks down at and makes it 1,200 to go.
Folds to Villain.
Villain raises to 2,400. Very little hesitation.
BB folds.
Hero … ?

 

[JWC]

All in

 

[DrStrange]

The kings are at least a set mining opportunity at that price. So not folding. Raise or call?

Villain is OOP. Let's take a flop and see how villain acts. Hero's preflop read is alarming. I am perfectly ok with getting outplayed if the villain deviates from his typical tendencies.

The tough question can be postponed till the flop. Not sure what to do on a ragged board where kings are an over pair and villain comes out betting. Any post flop villain reads?

DrStrange

 

[Dodger]

Based on info given, I’m 4-betting to 7K. If he shoves, I’m calling it off. (I’m not calling his 3-bet and trying to get tricky here.)

If you’d prefer to simplify and not play post-flop, just 4-bet shove yourself and let it run out.

If he calls your 4-bet of 7K and we go to a flop, we evaluate from there.

 

[bergs]

You got raised pre by an OOP absolute rock that doesn’t generally raise pre.

AA, AKs, KK (unlikely), QQ are all in their range with AA or QQ more likely. I’d make it 7K and evaluate from there. If they flat now, the board texture is going to be very interesting. If they jam, you can actually get away from this.

 

[JMC9389]

Raise to 7500

 

[Jimulacrum]

You got raised pre by an OOP absolute rock that doesn’t generally raise pre.

AA, AKs, KK (unlikely), QQ are all in their range with AA or QQ more likely. I’d make it 7K and evaluate from there. If they flat now, the board texture is going to be very interesting. If they jam, you can actually get away from this.

This is the closest estimation of my thinking. He's unlikely to 3-bet in general. The fact that he's 3-betting me in particular is alarming too, because he has a tendency to go passive when he's against friends. He's never just making a play here. He has a top-tier hand every time. Not even sure AK makes the cut.

Moreover, you'll notice I didn't say anything about his 4- and 5-bet frequency, and that's because I don't think I've ever seen him 4-bet or more in NLHE. We mostly play circus games, so take it with a grain of salt, but we've played a fair amount of NLHE too, and that's been my impression.

What I want here is to reopen the betting relatively cheaply and see what he does.

Hero raises to 5K.
Villain snap-jams for ~22K. (We're very close in stack size; whoever covers is going to be left with next to nothing if he loses.)

Right after he raises, I ask, "Aces, huh?" He says, "I'll show you." He is smiling and seems pretty confident.

Hero … ?

 

[JMC9389]

I think you need to call this off.

Go start the cash game if he has aces (likely)

 

[Jimulacrum]

The kings are at least a set mining opportunity at that price. So not folding. Raise or call?

Villain is OOP. Let's take a flop and see how villain acts. Hero's preflop read is alarming. I am perfectly ok with getting outplayed if the villain deviates from his typical tendencies.

I'm certainly not folding to the min-raise, but I don't like calling here either. I'd be going into post-flop with an awkward SPR and a hand that's going to feel good (if I assume he doesn't have aces) on most flops. Feels like a little too much gambling for me.

The tough question can be postponed till the flop. Not sure what to do on a ragged board where kings are an over pair and villain comes out betting. Any post flop villain reads?

DrStrange

Exactly why I wouldn't want to flat. He plays pretty straightforward post-flop, but it would be pretty hard to distinguish AA from any of a number of other overpairs if the flop comes bricks. I'll end up having to get myself pot-committed just to find out if I should commit, y'know?

 

[Jimulacrum]

All in

You just want to play cash.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

Is this a Freezeout?

 

[Jimulacrum]

As to the bet-size suggestion of ~7K I'm seeing in the replies, why that size? I feel like that size commits me for stacks no matter what happens.

My reasoning for going 5K was mostly that I would still have plenty of room to get away if he did shove. If he just called, I could be confident he didn't have aces, and he'd be stuck committing his stack on a variety of boards with worse than KK, or folding a huge pot that I'd be happy to take down uncontested.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Is this a Freezeout?

Yes. Also a league format with end-of-season points that matter, and that scale linearly (500 points per place).

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think you need to call this off.

Go start the cash game if he has aces (likely)

No cash game after this one, sadly, just the continuous oblivion of life away from the poker table.

 

[Dodger]

As to the bet-size suggestion of ~7K I'm seeing in the replies, why that size? I feel like that size commits me for stacks no matter what happens.

My reasoning for going 5K was mostly that I would still have plenty of room to get away if he did shove. If he just called, I could be confident he didn't have aces, and he'd be stuck committing his stack on a variety of boards with worse than KK, or folding a huge pot that I'd be happy to take down uncontested.

You know your villains better than I do. I’m raising to 7K as a more standard sizing and not looking for any excuses to fold (I’m not that good). Despite his lack of 5-betting history, I don’t know any home game players who would not be salivating after seeing a 4-bet and looking to shove with AA. And as mentioned, I’m happy to get it in pre with KK.

Like you, a pre-flop call to Hero’s 4-bet would give me the impression he is not holding AA.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

(Fast forwards the clip)

So what happened?

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

(Fast forwards the clip)

So what happened?

He folded & villain showed KK

 

[JMC9389]

He folded & villain showed KK

Lol that happened at a cash game at my place a couple of years ago. UTG raised, button 3 bet, UTG smooth calls. Flop came super wet and connected, something like J 10 6 with two clubs. UTG led out, button tanks about a minute before folding two red kings face up. UTG belly laughs and rolls over his two black kings.

 

[Jimulacrum]

(Fast forwards the clip)

So what happened?

*ghosts the thread and never returns*

 

[bergs]

This might be one of the 3 times I’ve folded KK pre.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

This might be one of the 3 times I’ve folded KK pre.

Yeah, since the OP cares about the late season tourney standings, and he is aware of the villain's table image and past tendencies, *and* there is no cash game waiting...

I can fold here and forget about it. Refocus and go as deep as I can into said tourney under more certain circumstances.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I fold.

Spoiler: Villain follows through on his promise and shows

 

[Felt_Lizard]

And then you took down the tourney!?

 

[Jimulacrum]

And then you took down the tourney!?

Nah, got my money in very solid a few rounds later (A7 vs J7 742 board) but then blah blah bad beat story.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I fold.

Spoiler: Villain follows through on his promise and shows

Makes sense. I play with a couple players like this & it's almost easy to lay it down. Nice that he showed you even though you already knew...

 

[Felt_Lizard]

...but then blah blah bad beat story.

Poker.

She's a fickle mistress, ain't she !? (bitch)

 

[Jimulacrum]

Makes sense. I play with a couple players like this & it's almost easy to lay it down. Nice that he showed you even though you already knew...

I do appreciate being shown the hand so I can tally it in my head as folding KK correctly, instead of wondering. I figure he might also do this with KK, but by that logic I'm 6:1 to have been right about AA.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Poker.

She's a fickle mistress, ain't she !? (bitch)

Dude who busted me was sitting on easily 120K and running like a god from the beginning of the tournament. Should've seen it coming.

 

[JMC9389]

I understand your fold. I'm just not a good enough player to do it myself.

Point implications for a league and no cash game after may factor my decision a little more towards folding, however.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I understand your fold. I'm just not a good enough player to do it myself.

Point implications for a league and no cash game after may factor my decision a little more towards folding, however.

It may be a mistake on my part, but I don't overly concern myself with league standings on individual decisions. I'd have folded KK here in a cash game too.

This was one of the thinner KK folds I've made, though. Key thing is I only had one opponent. Usually it's multi-way, which can make for huge clues when it comes to sniffing out AA, because 4-bets+ are so much stronger when there's a whole field that's well-invested in the hand. Heads-up, things can be a lot less clear.

The speechplay was what really locked it in for me. He responded with that "I've got the nuts" level of comfort, like he had no fear of what I might have.