Why I have a preflop folding range in Scarney (8 Viewers)

[DrStrange]

Playing $1-$5 spread limit Scarney, six handed. Breaking a rule and posting the whole hand at once. I'll be missing some of villain's cards as its hard to keep track of where the killed cards came from

Hero has standards preflop and folds sometime. In this case Hero's mitt is filled with

Facing a raise, Hero opts to fold. He has a poor shot at the winning low. Best hope for high is making queens-full. Otherwise, Hero is banking on a queen high flush draw or somehow making a straight and it holding up to win. No one else folds. Opinions otherwise for playing this hand preflop welcome.

Flop (good cards)
(kill cards)
Dang! Hero's fold looks like a mistake. Flopped over-full.

Action from the original raisier who gets 2-bet. Five-way action for the turn:

Turn (good cards)
(kill cards)
Hero's fold looks even worse.

The betting goes nuts, it gets capped at four bets with three players remaining. The original raiser pitched a six and has four cards left. The other two villains have four or five cards each.

river (good cards)
(kill cards)

The betting here is capped again.

The original raiser shows for a near lock low
The second villain shows for flopped quads.
The final villain shows for turned quads.

Hero's folded over-boat was a loser after all. Whew.

It's all fun and games until your quads get sunk by a bigger quad hand -=- DrStrange

 

[Jimulacrum]

Ell-oh-ell fold pre.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This is a pretty solid example of why it's best to play pretty tight preflop in this game and generally avoid face cards unless you're starting off with rolled up trips or better. (Even then, be wary.) It's similar in some ways to hand selection in Omaha 8, where anything that sets you up for second-nut or worse in either direction is usually a trap. But the concept of the nuts works very differently in Scarney.

When you're facing big action from a high hand, it'll be a boat or better just about every time, including quads and overboats to the board. Be especially careful with anyone who gives you that locked-in, probably-has-the-nuts vibe, which is way stronger in this game than in most. Even "top boat" isn't always good, as we see here.

When you're facing big action from a low, it's more nuanced due to the way the kill board works, but same idea: people generally wait for excellent, often single-digit lows before they're willing to put in big action.

If you can't make that caliber of hand with your openers, save your money.

 

[dpeks13]

I feel like I've only played scarney with bomb pots, which would have been trouble in your case

 

[Jimulacrum]

I feel like I've only played scarney with bomb pots, which would have been trouble in your case

That's how I've been playing it the past couple years, and yes, it does get you in trouble. You need to get good at reading when your opponents have quads or an overboat to the board; it's a little like reading when people have the nuts in Hold'em. And you need to be able to follow through and fold when it's clear your top boat or whatever is beaten.

Like in this hand played as a bomb pot, Hero would flop queens full, but as OP stated, the betting went nuts every round. Unless the players involved are the type to get really invested with underboats, you have to consider queens full is no good, even right there on the flop, if the betting is already wild. Importantly, that high hand is Hero's only chance, and it's only for half the pot. He's totally locked out of the other half. Is this a strong enough hand to weather capped bets from start to finish for only half the pot? Sometimes it will be, but when it's not, you're paying off a lot of bets to split at best. The price of occasionally folding the winner isn't actually that bad if it saves you from getting skinned the rest of the time.

 

[Kain8]

Me reading this:

 

[JMC9389]

I feel like I've only played scarney with bomb pots, which would have been trouble in your case

This is the only way to play Scarney now that I've done it. I'm definitely not folding any pocket pair preflop. The potential to flop sets and to fill up on the next street is too nice to pass up. The quads over quads over that would have been a full house is a bad beat. That doesn't happen often at all.

I would fold something like Q 10 8 rag rag. QQ 2, 3, 5, for example, I'm holding onto that. You can flop all the sets and disguised boats in the world and you can win the low if you lose your queens also.

 

[Ben8257]

There is indeed only one way to play scarney (other than the 27 variants)

$2 bomb pots every hand!! Go straight to the flop and let’s goo!!!

Nobody raises pre and we can get a couple $$$ from the nits (Ben)… now 6 handed is $12 in the kitty… expect the $10 bet to see that beautiful double turn! If we are down to 3 cards or Top set or better… CALL that $10! Don’t go re raising and run away all the people on the fence about the $10 spot… post turn pot away!!!

And to anyone that says Scarney is not poker… SCREW YOU!!

 

[Jimulacrum]

There is indeed only one way to play scarney (other than the 27 variants)

$2 bomb pots every hand!! Go straight to the flip and let’s goo!!!

Nobody raises pre and we can get a couple $$$ from the nits (Ben)… now 6 handed is $12 in the kitty… expect the $10 bet to see that beautiful double turn! If we are down to 3 cards or Top set or better… CALL that $10! Don’t go re raising and run away all the people on the fence about the $10 spot… post turn pot away!!!

And to anyone that says Scarney is not poker… SCREW YOU!!

Scarney is absolutely poker; it's 5 Card Hold'em High-Low with forced discards and a unique low ranking scale.

Says right here in the only book in the whole world that addresses this topic:

 

[Jimulacrum]

This is the only way to play Scarney now that I've done it. I'm definitely not folding any pocket pair preflop. The potential to flop sets and to fill up on the next street is too nice to pass up. The quads over quads over that would have been a full house is a bad beat. That doesn't happen often at all.

I would fold something like Q 10 8 rag rag. QQ 2, 3, 5, for example, I'm holding onto that. You can flop all the sets and disguised boats in the world and you can win the low if you lose your queens also.

I agree about playing it as a bomb pot. I do not agree about why. I'm folding QQxxxx with junk cards all day every day if I get to fold preflop.

That said, that's kinda the point of playing it as a bomb pot. It prevents players from beating the crap out of everyone else by just playing nitty preflop. Waiting for preflop monsters is even more of a viable strategy in this game than it is in NLHE, but once you take that off the table, those nits have to learn how to navigate hands like @DrStrange's example, and it stirs up a lot of action that wouldn't happen otherwise.

 

[JMC9389]

I agree about playing it as a bomb pot. I do not agree about why. I'm folding QQxxxx with junk cards all day every day if I get to fold preflop.

That said, that's kinda the point of playing it as a bomb pot. It prevents players from beating the crap out of everyone else by just playing nitty preflop. Waiting for preflop monsters is even more of a viable strategy in this game than it is in NLHE, but once you take that off the table, those nits have to learn how to navigate hands like @DrStrange's example, and it stirs up a lot of action that wouldn't happen otherwise.

Don't disagree there. Playing with an ante/bomb pot format I contend actually drives more action than a regular layout with blinds. A hand like AA22x is probably the only hand based on the theory of the game that I'd raise pre, hoping to lose that 5th card while money gets piled into the pot.

Too many other hands are potentially viable to fold pre unless it's a bunch of isolated high cards with no straight flush potential. Even if you're playing 0.25/0.50 and its potted, it's worth the 2 or 3 bucks to see some cards and reassess.

 

[DrStrange]

Be mindful that this example hand is in a limit betting format. The winning margins are around medium strength hands. You can't peddle near nut hands.

If we were playing in a big bet game, then the fight will be over who can scoop monster pots. Big betting games are fully the domain of nits and nut peddlers if the stacks are deep.

In my game, we rarely lose more than one player preflop. four to six way action every hand. A good time is had by all -=- DrStrange

 

[Jimulacrum]

In my game, we rarely lose more than one player preflop. four to six way action every hand. A good time is had by all -=- DrStrange

I bet that one player who's usually out is you, and you are also the player who wins the most in this game. Even in a limit format, Scarney calls for a tight preflop selection, for the same reasons you play tight preflop in limit Omaha 8. Everything that doesn't start off as a big nutty draw is a big loser waiting to happen.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Don't disagree there. Playing with an ante/bomb pot format I contend actually drives more action than a regular layout with blinds. A hand like AA22x is probably the only hand based on the theory of the game that I'd raise pre, hoping to lose that 5th card while money gets piled into the pot.

Well, raising pre is another question. There are very few hands you really want to pump the action preflop, and most of them start with AAA or AA22. Other than that, you just want to see the flop cheaply (or you're a maniac raising for the sake of raising).

 

[JMC9389]

Well, raising pre is another question. There are very few hands you really want to pump the action preflop, and most of them start with AAA or AA22. Other than that, you just want to see the flop cheaply (or you're a maniac raising for the sake of raising).

I've dealt with the latter quite a bit. In mixed games, equities run much closer together than in hold 'em. Sure, there are hands that are absolutely junk and unplayable, but for any starting hand with connecting potential (pocket pairs, nut draws, etc), even if you're behind preflop, it's by such a sliver of a margin that it's worth seeing cards.

 

[Kain8]

fully the domain of nits and nut peddlers if the stacks are deep.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I've dealt with the latter quite a bit. In mixed games, equities run much closer together than in hold 'em. Sure, there are hands that are absolutely junk and unplayable, but for any starting hand with connecting potential (pocket pairs, nut draws, etc), even if you're behind preflop, it's by such a sliver of a margin that it's worth seeing cards.

This varies significantly by game. Vanilla Omaha, absolutely.

Omaha 8, Scarney, Dramaha, big-hand versions of Hold'em, absolutely not. There are a lot of hands that are way ahead out of the gate, some of them even more than in Hold'em. Play loose on the openers and you're dooming yourself to Reverse Implied Odds Hell.