Must a Winning Hand Show ALL Cards? (1 Viewer)

[UniLover]

I have been hosting friendly mixed cash games 50c/$1. All the players know each other.

Situation:

Rio Bravo, player A preflop bets $5.50; player B raises to $11; player C calls.

Player A then raises to $55, which is very unusal for our game. Player B calls; player C calls.

We see flop, I think 3 7 J, BAM three way all-in. Side pot between players A and C.

No more actions but no one turned over citing last individual card yet to come.

Turn 3, river Q, everyone gets their Rio Bravo card.

Player A shows a 3 for a trip and claims it’s from the Rio Bravo card.

Player B shows pocket Qs for Q Q Q 3 3.

Player C shows pocket Ks for K K 3 3 X.

Player B takes main pot, no one cares about his Rio Bravo card.

Player A wins side pot with a trip over Player C’s two pairs.

Player C asks to see all of Player A’s card. Player A refuses citing he already showed his winning card.

Player C argues all cards should be shown.

How would you rule?

 

[umbkcshah]

All cards must be shown to take a portion of pot at showdown (unless all other players voluntarily muck their hand instead of showing down).

 

[mikem_nyc]

I remind all players to show all cards to win the main/sidepot at my home games. Not saying you have to enforce casino rules (recommended), but in a casino if you show one card and muck the other, the dealer considers it a full muck and will award the pot to the other player(s).

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

All cards shown. Otherwise it could be two of the same cards or some other bullshit that made the otherwise winning hand invalid.

 

[BGinGA]

All cards must be shown to take a portion of pot at showdown (unless all other players voluntarily muck their hand instead of showing down).

^ This. And in tournament play, all hole cards must be shown to win any part of a pot, regardless of if they were used to make the winning hand -- even if the opponent(s) mucked.

 

[UniLover]

I remind all players to show all cards to win the main/sidepot at my home games. Not saying you have to enforce casino rules (recommended), but in a casino if you show one card and muck the other, the dealer considers it a full muck and will award the pot to the other player(s).

Is there a different set of rules for home game?

If there is, should there be?

And in tournament play, all hole cards must be shown to win any part of a pot, regardless of if they were used to make the winning hand -- even if the opponent(s) mucked.

Similar to above, is there a different set of rules for cash game?

If there is, should there be?



Btw, player C says he would not have cared if it weren’t an all-in situation.

We also don’t enforce the must show cards at all-in if requested, i.e. if a person mucks it stays mucked.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

We dont have to show at all-in and muck anytime, but there's no good reason why someone should get a pot with half a hand. What if he was dealt an extra card and is keeping it face down stacked tightly? What if the deck is fouled and he's got two Kh?

 

[BGinGA]

Is there a different set of rules for home game?

If there is, should there be?


Similar to above, is there a different set of rules for cash game?

If there is, should there be?

There are two primary poker rule sets followed by most casinos and many well-organized home games -- Robert's Rules of Poker (RROP) and those published by Tournament Directors Association (TDA). Either can be used by casinos or home games (as-is or amended), or a set of house rules can be written and used.

As to whether there should be different rules for casinos and home games, my response would be 'no'.... although some areas of home games (rotating or playing dealer, for example) are not covered by most rule sets.

As to whether there should be different rules for cash games and tournaments, I would argue that some components of the two variations does mean having some different rules for each makes sense. But the majority of rules apply equally well to both.

 

[UniLover]

We dont have to show at all-in and muck anytime, but there's no good reason why someone should get a pot with half a hand. What if he was dealt an extra card and is keeping it face down stacked tightly? What if the deck is fouled and he's got two Kh?

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

 

[umbkcshah]

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

In a friendly, relaxed game, I counter with why does the player care if his whole hand is shown? I don't care typically in my very casual quarters game ($2 max raise with friends), but if the request is made, your hand is shown.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

usually? I won't argue if someone flashes the ace for the nut flush and takes it down, but if for some reason in a big pot where there's multiple all-ins, I think player C is well within his right to see the winning hand. All depends on the game culture of course, I'm not going to tap the tank but if its my game I would request the rest of the hand shown to keep the peace. My take is usually keep it friendly and casual but when a dispute comes up we use the rules to avoid any ambiguity.

Agreed with @umbkcshah , its not a big deal until you don't want to do it, then it's off-putting. If its friendly and relaxed why is someone worried about "information"?

 

[BGinGA]

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

A winning hand is shown, trip vs two pairs.

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

Yes, imo. The fact that the game is friendly and relaxed is likely due in part to enforcing rules that discourage cheating and are also capable of exposing mistakes (like a fouled deck, being mis-dealt three cards or just one, or accidentally mucking a single card).

Just show your damn hand to win a pot, it's simple. The potential downside of not doing so far outweighs any perceived upside of "hiding knowledge" or other silly reasons.

 

[UniLover]

In a friendly, relaxed game, I counter with why does the player care if his whole hand is shown? I don't care typically in my very casual quarters game ($2 max raise with friends), but if the request is made, your hand is shown.

usually? I won't argue if someone flashes the ace for the nut flush and takes it down, but if for some reason in a big pot where there's multiple all-ins, I think player C is well within his right to see the winning hand. All depends on the game culture of course, I'm not going to tap the tank but if its my game I would request the rest of the hand shown to keep the peace. My take is usually keep it friendly and casual but when a disupute comes up we use the rules to avoid any ambiguity.

Agreed with @umbkcshah , its not a big deal until you don't want to do it, then it's off-putting. If its friendly and relaxed why is someone worried about "information"?

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

Yup, seems like thats what Player C wants, and he is entitled to that information from Player A if A wants the pot. You can change it as a house rule, but I dont think theres anything unfriendly about wanting to see both cards while the other guy scoops a massive pot.

Seems Player A is being less friendly and casual. As hosts you can set the rules, but at my friendly casual games you've got to show all your cards to drag a pot. Maybe it doesnt happen every time, but its less friendly to not show for some competitive reason.

Edit: I'm gonna double down on this. Definitely not attacking Player A, never met him or anyone involved, but:

- Wanting information from the guy that has all my money is not unfriendly.
- Preventing the stacked player from seeing what whooped him IS unfriendly.

 

[BGinGA]

A little more background.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

Three of the four hosts are involved in this particular hand.

We have all had hands where say four cards on the board are suited and one person shows Ace for Ace high flush takes it down without the other card being shown.

The way I read it is Player C wants information on why Player A goes $55 pre-flop, bluffing? Pocket pairs? Suited connectors?

Maybe. Or maybe Player C just wants to verify that Player A has a valid hand, which is a requirement to claim the pot.

Wait, are you Player A?

 

[UniLover]

Maybe. Or maybe Player C just wants to verify that Player A has a valid hand, which is a requirement to claim the pot.

Wait, are you Player A?

Nope I was B.

No one cared what my Rio Bravo card was lol.

Yeah my all in was about $220 at the flop, so main pot was about $900 on a 50c/$1 game.

Players A and C’s side pot was around $300.

 

[Huskerchipper]

Overwhelmingly it seems you have your answer. To not show both cards changes the feel of the game and seems to go against the 'relaxed and friendly' status. I wouldn't want that policy of not having to show both cards to rake a pot at my game. Do you think that player C still has a bad taste in his mouth so to speak from the hand?

 

[Stephendoohamlet]

I voted before reading the context of how it played out, my apologies for ruining your perfect poll..!

 

[Machine]

The rule explicitly exists to prevent cheating in multiple ways. 1) and the easiest way, make sure people are not running cards in, 2) is a tale tell sign if there is collusion

It’s not an optional rule if you’re the host and want to grow your game.

 

[SwissChip]

Player A is a pure gambler!

 

[Machine]

All the players know each other.

I know all the players around Indy, doesn't mean that I trust them or should.

Is there a different set of rules for home game?

If there is, should there be?

There is not a different set, and no there should not be, an even game of chance should be the same regardless of location.

Valid point. Let’s assume game security is not an issue.

The only time security is not an issue is when you are playing by yourself, AND money is not involved

Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown, in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?

Lets break this down
Q: Do the other hole cards that do not contribute to the winning hand have to be shown
A: YES!

Q: in a friendly, relaxed, casual, home cash mixed-games game without security concerns?
A: non sequitur

Here is the deal, I would value friendships enough to hold it at a higher respect as to unequivocally provide evidence, such that indiscretion is never allowed to be questioned.

Four of us rotate and host games at our homes.

Friends first, poker came later.

I had a girlfriend once where we were friends first, romance came later, wanna guess if we are friends anymore?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I voted before reading the context of how it played out, my apologies for ruining your perfect poll..!

No you're good, this proves my PCF hypothesis that we can never agree on anything unanimously. Love the profile pic, perfect.

 

[UniLover]

Overwhelmingly it seems you have your answer. To not show both cards changes the feel of the game and seems to go against the 'relaxed and friendly' status. I wouldn't want that policy of not having to show both cards to rake a pot at my game. Do you think that player C still has a bad taste in his mouth so to speak from the hand?

O for sure.

I apologized yesterday w the ruling.

Moving on all cards will be shown, thanks PCF!

 

[allforcharity]

I had a girlfriend once where we were friends first, romance came later, wanna guess if we are friends anymore?

You married her?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

O for sure.

I apologized yesterday w the ruling.

Moving on all cards will be shown, thanks PCF!

Sign of a great host. Make a ruling on what you think is right and keeps the game going, think on it, and address it later after you've reviewed it. Well done.

 

[TheChipVault]

If I’m player C and I just got stacked, I may want to know the exact hand player A went all in with and since I paid, I have the right to view the entire hand.

 

[jxfan]

I remind all players to show all cards to win the main/sidepot at my home games. Not saying you have to enforce casino rules (recommended), but in a casino if you show one card and muck the other, the dealer considers it a full muck and will award the pot to the other player(s).

Definitely have to show! Also if you ever do mixed games or Omaha, cards speak so you should always show your full hand rather than just muck (whether you think you have the winning hand or you don't). Who knows, maybe you missed that you had 2 hearts and there's a flush on the board

 

[BGinGA]

If I’m player C and I just got stacked, I may want to know the exact hand player A went all in with and since I paid, I have the right to view the entire hand.

Paying has nothing to do with it. Anybody that was dealt cards in that hand has the right to see the winning cards at showdown.

 

[Machine]

Paying has nothing to do with it. Anybody that was dealt cards in that hand has the right to see the winning cards at showdown.

I've heard two reasons for this, one from a book iirc - To expose collusion. Player A raises, Player B calls, Player C raises, Player B folds, Players A and C check it down. Often you can see if Player A or C has a 'good hand' and the other has rags, if this happens its suspicious, if it happens over and over, its cheating. If not straight collusion then soft play.

The other explanation I've seen claimed is a holdover from an actual 'Showdown' where everyone exposes their hand regardless of current poker norms.

Most casinos seem to have adopted alternate versions of this, and if you're asking because you can articulate suspicion, they will likely oblige once, but will not allow it to disrupt the game if you're asking over and over.

 

[TheChipVault]

Paying has nothing to do with it. Anybody that was dealt cards in that hand has the right to see the winning cards at showdown.

I’m not quoting rules here. Stating a fact.