Triple Draw Hand Dealer Error - Need a Ruling (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

The game is $4-$8 Fixed Limit. The game is Archie (Triple Draw Game). We play with a dedicated dealer.

Scenario: 3 players go to the second draw after action on previous betting streets. Player A in EP checks. Player B in middle position bets, Player C in late position calls.

Player A, while facing one bet, pitches one card toward the dealer, who interprets this as a fold. She then instinctively moves on to the drawing round and turns to Player B, who pitches once card which is subsequently replaced by the dealer. Player B looks at the new card and pulls it into his hand with the other 4. Option to draw is now on Player C.

Player A protests, indicating that he thought it was the draw round and pitched a card expecting it to be replaced. He wasn't intending to fold.

As host, I was asked for a ruling. Obviously, this falls under 'dealer error', although fault does lie with Player A as well.

Should Player A's hand be declared dead? Should he be allowed to call the bet as he intended and receive a card off the top of the stub?

Tagging @Jimulacrum @CraigT78 @detroitdad @BGinGA for their experience with circus games.

I'm sure you'll have questions... unfortunately I was away from the table at the exact moment this happened, so I didn't witness it personally. The description is from the players at the table who were present at the time.

Spoiler: Result

The game is comprised of many experienced players, so we collectively discussed what to do but no one could say definitively what the correct ruling should be. We surmised that killing Player A's hand is what would happen in a casino, although that didn't seem like the correct ruling since it's a draw game and pitching cards to the dealer isn't an automatic fold like in flop or stud games.

After a couple mins, Player A said 'it's really not that big of a deal' and mucked the other 4 cards, essentially in the interest of keeping the game moving.

 

[upNdown]

I think A is out of luck. Dealer errors suck, but I’ve seen in in real life and I’ve seen it in higher stakes videos. It’s never fair when it happens, but what can you do?

Dealer should have confirmed the action. A should have protested as soon as a card went to B. But those things didn’t happen so the result is inevitable- sorry A, you’re out.

 

[Machine]

Random is random - player A should have option fold or take the draw.

Really comes down to how you want to set the pace for your games.

My motto is ‘is the best interest for the spirit of the game’

Personally I feel that player a should still have an interest in the pot if he would like.

By nature I’m typically a prescriptivist, but in this case I think it’s fine

 

[ArielVer18]

Only one action was out of turn, so I wouldn't rule Player A's hand dead. Not enough substantial action. Let Player A call or fold. He cannot raise. Then he can draw one and only one off the top before Player C makes his draw decision.

In the future, BURN a card before the draw round. This signifies the start of the draw round and possibly give enough pause to the action for Player A to notice there was a bet.

Also btw, stop pitching draw cards because there's a non-zero chance of accidental exposure. The proper procedure is to push and pull a player's draw cards.

 

[springbox]

I don't know what the correct ruling would be, but it seems to me that it's reasonable that player A should have the option to call or fold. Very little has changed from the point of their/the dealer's mistake, no new betting has occurred and they've gained very slight information. The fact that B drew what 'should' be player A's card seems immaterial, if the deck is random the card is random. If player A calls they draw exactly one card, then player C has their opportunity to draw.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm no Draw Poker expert, but I'd rule that the betting action is on Player A to first call or fold (and then to receive his single replacement draw card if calling).... followed by resuming the draw action on Player C.

Significant action has not ocurred since Player A's out-of-order pitch act, and Dealer subsequently failed to require completion of the prior betting action prior to improperly started the draw action. I agree that Dealer using table raps and burn cards to indicate end of betting round is a sound process to follow to help minimize errors by both Dealer and players.

My only real concern with this outcome would be if Player A now opted to fold after having seen Player B's draw choice. But I fail to see how Player A can be forced to call, and declaring his hand dead after Dealer's two-fold error is not in the best interest of the game.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Dealer should have confirmed the action. A should have protested as soon as a card went to B. But those things didn’t happen so the result is inevitable- sorry A, you’re out.

As I mentioned, I didn't actually see what happened in real time, so while a mistake was made, I'm not exactly sure how this happened in the first place.

In the future, BURN a card before the draw round. This signifies the start of the draw round and possibly give enough pause to the action for Player A to notice there was a bet.

I agree that Dealer using table raps and burn cards to indicate end of betting round is a sound process to follow to help minimize errors by both Dealer and players.

We use a slideshow that is shown on a 55" screen that includes audible cues on each slide. For the draw games, there is a slide for each draw that speaks 'first draw', 'second draw' and 'final draw' respectively. The dealer controls this with a small Bluetooth device that sits on the table.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. It seems like the consensus is Player A should have been given the option to call or fold, and then should have been given the next card off the deck to complete his draw.

Spoiler posted.

 

[doublebooyah85]

@bergs @Rhodeman77

 

[detroitdad]

Only one action was out of turn, so I wouldn't rule Player A's hand dead. Not enough substantial action. Let Player A call or fold. He cannot raise. Then he can draw one and only one off the top before Player C makes his draw decision.

In the future, BURN a card before the draw round. This signifies the start of the draw round and possibly give enough pause to the action for Player A to notice there was a bet.

Also btw, stop pitching draw cards because there's a non-zero chance of accidental exposure. The proper procedure is to push and pull a player's draw cards.

This............Except for the burn card. In triple draw games we do not normally burn. A tap of the table to signify that action is moving forward should be suffice.

 

[CraigT78]

The game is $4-$8 Fixed Limit. The game is Archie (Triple Draw Game). We play with a dedicated dealer.

Scenario: 3 players go to the second draw after action on previous betting streets. Player A in EP checks. Player B in middle position bets, Player C in late position calls.

Player A, while facing one bet, pitches one card toward the dealer, who interprets this as a fold. She then instinctively moves on to the drawing round and turns to Player B, who pitches once card which is subsequently replaced by the dealer. Player B looks at the new card and pulls it into his hand with the other 4. Option to draw is now on Player C.

Player A protests, indicating that he thought it was the draw round and pitched a card expecting it to be replaced. He wasn't intending to fold.

As host, I was asked for a ruling. Obviously, this falls under 'dealer error', although fault does lie with Player A as well.

Should Player A's hand be declared dead? Should he be allowed to call the bet as he intended and receive a card off the top of the stub?

Tagging @Jimulacrum @CraigT78 @detroitdad @BGinGA for their experience with circus games.

I'm sure you'll have questions... unfortunately I was away from the table at the exact moment this happened, so I didn't witness it personally. The description is from the players at the table who were present at the time.

Spoiler: Result

The game is comprised of many experienced players, so we collectively discussed what to do but no one could say definitively what the correct ruling should be. We surmised that killing Player A's hand is what would happen in a casino, although that didn't seem like the correct ruling since it's a draw game and pitching cards to the dealer isn't an automatic fold like in flop or stud games.

After a couple mins, Player A said 'it's really not that big of a deal' and mucked the other 4 cards, essentially in the interest of keeping the game moving.

In my game this would not be a fold, the player could draw a card. Random is random.

 

[CraigT78]

We also are never burning cards in a triple draw game. It's in my house rules that we don't burn at all in circus games.

 

[upNdown]

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the guy getting a chance to call and then draw out of order. But if you’re going to do that, I think there should be a rule in place that somehow says that’s how you’ll handle these situations. Because barring that rule, you’re just going down a slippery slope of making rulings that you think are fair, that piss off other people. Or worse, letting the table decide the fairest way to handle it.
I much prefer a clean, black and white ruling - sorry, you’re screwed. And by the way you know it’s your own damn fault for not following the action. I can’t for the life of me figure out why players are so resistant to a sensible ruling like that. It’s poker; you should be used to being screwed!

 

[Moxie Mike]

Personally, I don’t have a problem with the guy getting a chance to call and then draw out of order. But if you’re going to do that, I think there should be a rule in place that somehow says that’s how you’ll handle these situations. Because barring that rule, you’re just going down a slippery slope of making rulings that you think are fair, that piss off other people. Or worse, letting the table decide the fairest way to handle it.
I much prefer a clean, black and white ruling - sorry, you’re screwed. And by the way you know it’s your own damn fault for not following the action. I can’t for the life of me figure out why players are so resistant to a sensible ruling like that. It’s poker; you should be used to being screwed!

It was an unconventional error in an unconventional game with no clear protocol for what to do in that situation. I sent out a group text this morning explaining that if a similar situation again we'll handle it by allowing Player A to call the bet and draw out of turn.

 

[bergs]

Agree with Craig on both points. Oddly, I’ve never seen this happen yet and I play alot of triple draw games.