Long-time regular loses his marbles (2 Viewers)

[MrCatPants]

Cash game tonight. Couple things occur with a long time regular that results in a weird incident. Where do you go as a host after the below?

1) Host feels a creased card while dealing and reminds players not to press down on the cards while peeking. Player in question gets defensive. It passes.

2) Player in question has a penchant for sloppy betting practices. Cuts out chips over the line (pushes a whole stack, sets it down and releases, then starts working his cut out of the barrel) without a verbal on the regular, and is warned this is string betting. In a subsequent hand he starts dripping chips slowly into the pot. He's told the bet can stand but is again wsrned he needs to stop string betting and should cut his chips out in his stack. He gets defensive and goes between "no casino does this" and "this isnt a casino whats up with all the rules?"

3) a holdem hand - he is big blind. Button opens, BB 3 bets, button 4 bets to 200 BB. Player in question has about 280 BB total. He asks if they can run twice, i tell them someone has to be all in first. Other player in the hand repeats that. Player in question calls the bet and asks "go twice?" and the other player repeats that no one is all in so they cant yet go twice. I confirm. Player in question stsrts getting belligerent and i deal flop. Ace in the window, BB checks and says "check it down?" And button says no and goes all in. BB angrily folds pocket queens face up, tosses chips to host and says "cash me out" and leaves table.

4) Player returns to the room and starts ranting about how in a cash game players can agree on whatever they want and starts posing hypothetical scenarios about what could happen with various run twice or agreements to stop action. Host reiterates that the all-in and 50BB pot minimum rules for running it twice have been in place in the game for alnost a decade. Player storms out.

Does host owe a followup to plsyer? Does player owe one to host? Is player out of the game unless they show some contrition? Just ignore it and move on? Wtf do i do with someone who lost several marbles?

 

[joeyshin]

Bye felicia

 

[ValueTown]

They can side bar later and find out why the animosity for the rules. If the player is still acting up, not a regular anymore. For a "reg" they sure did push the limits of generosity of the host.

 

[Marius L]

Cpnsidering he's a regular I guess this is somewhat og a one time thing and he doesnt usually cause problems like this? (Although that seems a bit wierd considering his actions)

If so, then just ignore it happened and keep inviting him as usual? People get pissed when they loose sometimes and maybe he had a bad day or whatever.

If he was a new player I'd just not invite him back most likely.

 

[AlbinoDragon]

How much had the player in question had to drink? Some people get belligerent when they aren't entirely sober. Some of this behavior might be that.

 

[LeLe]

The regular ^

 

[UniLover]

I have told player I would cash them out for critizing my chips so…

 

[matthewb]

Send him Robert's Rules of Poker and make him apologize to everyone privately, then the group can decide if they want him back.

 

[Eriks]

Sounds weird this behavior just turned up out of the blue. Obv, I don’t know about your relationship with this player, but this is trouble I don’t want at my game. A new player acting like this would never get invited back that’s for sure.

A reg? I don’t know, it depends. I stopped invited someone as described here. Wasn’t out of the blue behavior but still.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

If he was a random, never call him again but since he's a regular Id followup with a "WTF?" question. Bad day at home? Drink? Health issue? If this is out of the ordinary its probably not the poker causing it. Id nicely approach and ask if hes okay before talking about why what he did sucks for your game.

Sorry to hear it, uncomfortable situation. I usually give the benefit of the doubt, may have problems at work/home that bubbled over.

 

[Darthhoodie]

Since he is a reg, I would 100% follow up with him.
Open with a "Hey is everything alright?", based on the answer to that I would then follow that with a "WTF!".
This way it seems like you care and at the same time you are sending a clear message that this behavior will not stand.
Good luck!

 

[Highli99]

Since he is a reg, I would 100% follow up with him.
Open with a "Hey is everything alright?", based on the answer to that I would then follow that with a "WTF!".
This way it seems like you care and at the same time you are sending a clear message that this behavior will not stand.
Good luck!

I like that approach. Probably something in his personal life. Not an excuse for the behavior but could explain it. That soda came to the party all shook up and looking for a reason to spray down the room.

 

[BEANO52]

He is a "regular". Mimicking @Marius L in that maybe it's not a "usual" behavior. Invite him back. Everyone has bad nights, myself included. And I can promise you, I am one of the most chillaxed players you'd ever sit with.

 

[buzzmonkey]

Since he is a reg, I would 100% follow up with him.
Open with a "Hey is everything alright?", based on the answer to that I would then follow that with a "WTF!".
This way it seems like you care and at the same time you are sending a clear message that this behavior will not stand.
Good luck!

Agreed. For a reg expressing unusual behavior, I have a chat with them to both find out what's wrong and to set your expectations.

 

[allforcharity]

Sounds weird. If he is a reg then he should know the rules and the reasons why they are there. Something else is going on that's setting him off.

P.S. I always shut down "why are you being so serious, this isn't a casino" complaints by explaining that I run things on how a casino would run them because I don't want to encourage bad or lazy play practices at my table, because if they replicate poor behavior at a casino then they will get reprimanded for it, and I want to save them the embarrassment.

 

[HiveKueen]

Send him Robert's Rules of Poker and make him apologize to everyone privately, then the group can decide if they want him back.

Public badness requires public apology.

 

[timinater]

I live for these threads @MrCatPants. What a vibrant game to keep these stories coming!

For me, I give that bad behavior a pass IF it's an outlier to their usual behavior. Everyone has a bad day and frankly them cashing out and leaving might have been the most mature decision in that moment if they were upset. I'd follow up or just give them the benefit of the doubt in the short term.

Perhaps prior to the next game host could reiterate the rules and the reasoning for the rules. Certainly two people can agree to anything, but for the sake of the game we agree to norms to keep things moving and fair.

As for the cards, all of my copags are creased from peeling. I've given up. Some of my used WSOP decks from Spinetti's came that way. I truly believe amongst my group it's innocent, and at this point so many cards of all ranks and suits in each deck have the creases (all in the exact same spot) that I don't see how it could remain an effective system of marking cards. We just play on. If I'm naive to something I'd happily stand corrected, however.

Allow me to get on my soapbox:

Spoiler: On Running it Twice

I don't like it. Either run it once, or thrice. Someone needs to feel pain for the good of the game. Either way, decide fast, run the board faster and chop it fastest.

 

[upNdown]

Tangent time, but “check it down?” is just about the wieniest thing anybody could say at the poker table and I’d like to shake the hand of the guy whose response was to jam. Send him my regards.

Yeah I think you should have a conversation with him, but I’m betting it won’t go well. Based on how you described it, it’s possible that this guy’s got some issues with the game and he usually suppresses them, but on this night for whatever reason, you got a good dose of his real feelings.

 

[Machine]

The most egregious conduct is

BB checks and says "check it down?"

This is collusion

Player returns to the room and starts ranting about how in a cash game players can agree on whatever they want and starts posing hypothetical scenarios about what could happen with various run twice or agreements to stop action.

Again collusion, and they are both the same thing. This is cheating and I would educate him on his ignorance.


How / Why?

You can check it down, but if you have a strong hand and win with it, this would be a form of soft playing, which is not only bad etiquette, its also against a lot of rule sets.

You can't ask if the other player wants to check it down, because this is collusion, its easy to get someone else to jam jam jam with you and run other players out of the hand only to have the winner chop it up with the other player later, and EVEN if this doesn't happen, the player that got ran out, doesn't know if it is or not but if they feel they were cheated ...

He gets defensive and goes between "no casino does this" and "this isn't a casino whats up with all the rules?"
Did you walk past 2 roulette wheels to sit at this table? This isn't a casino, its my home, we have integrity here, we're not after a rake or the vig.

Rules hold everyone to the same standards, what are we animals? Maybe poker isn't your game, maybe I can pick up a slot machine for you.

 

[mike32]

A few years ago the wise @DrStrange had a post where he explained why we all probably make too big a deal about string betting in our home games.

I would definitely give him another shot since he is a reg. Also personally if it's heads up in a cash game in my opinion two players can make any deals they want whether all in or not.

 

[Machine]

Also personally if it's heads up in a cash game in my opinion two players can make any deals they want whether all in or not.

This is against the spirit of the game, a form of cheating, and you'll like lose players that have integrity.

 

[upNdown]

The most egregious conduct is


This is collusion

Again collusion, and they are both the same thing. This is cheating and I would educate him on his ignorance.


How / Why?

You can check it down, but if you have a strong hand and win with it, this would be a form of soft playing, which is not only bad etiquette, its also against a lot of rule sets.

You can't ask if the other player wants to check it down, because this is collusion, its easy to get someone else to jam jam jam with you and run other players out of the hand only to have the winner chop it up with the other player later, and EVEN if this doesn't happen, the player that got ran out, doesn't know if it is or not but if they feel they were cheated ...

He gets defensive and goes between "no casino does this" and "this isn't a casino whats up with all the rules?"
Did you walk past 2 roulette wheels to sit at this table? This isn't a casino, its my home, we have integrity here, we're not after a rake or the vig.

Rules hold everyone to the same standards, what are we animals? Maybe poker isn't your game, maybe I can pick up a slot machine for you.

I agree with you completely, but it’s certainly not unprecedented. The most famous example I can remember is that huge hand between Jamie Gold and Sami Farha, where they were heads up, each had bricks of cash in the middle, and were talking about pulling some of it back.
Reasonable minds can disagree on this, but that sort of stuff definitely happens. I agree with you that it’s collusion and it’s bullshit. But I don’t get shocked that some cash players feel differently.

 

[Rieguy]

Why can't people just be normal and stick to licking cards?! (Preferably the Broken Arrows.)

Seriously though, an apology is owed at the very least. It's about respect more than anything. You run a fair and friendly game.

If not, I know a guy you can sic on him:

I have bias for obvious reasons but I'm also 100% sure that whatever you're thinking or have decided is the right move.

 

[bergs]

The bigger problem here is him doing this collusiony BS while you try to bring in new players. It’s going to spook them and it’ll be hard to grow the game.

Take him aside and be like “hey, what the fuck?”. If he doesn’t get it, set expectations with him and if it happens again, hit the eject button.

 

[MrCatPants]

He gets defensive and goes between "no casino does this" and "this isn't a casino whats up with all the rules?"
Did you walk past 2 roulette wheels to sit at this table? This isn't a casino, its my home, we have integrity here, we're not after a rake or the vig.

He did walk by one roulette wheel.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Does host owe a followup to plsyer? Does player owe one to host? Is player out of the game unless they show some contrition? Just ignore it and move on? Wtf do i do with someone who lost several marbles?

Everything depends on so many factors, including what type of game you run and how uncomfortable of a situation he was creating for your game. Being a regular, dependent on that relationship I think it's worth reaching out and next steps would be determined by his reaction/response.

Was this a one time thing and he was under stress and apologizes? Has he had warning flags coming up that resulted in this, and he doubles down? I'd guess that with something this volatile his response/actions will be pretty telling.

We had a local PCF regular attend the last meetup and legitimately lose marbles to the point of breaking shit and taking money. That put them at a .000001% chance at ever being invited to anything again. When their response was "I didn't mean anything", they were immediately ignored and placed on a list to not be allowed admittance to the home association again.

If people tell you who they are, believe them.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I agree with you completely, but it’s certainly not unprecedented. The most famous example I can remember is that huge hand between Jamie Gold and Sami Farha, where they were heads up, each had bricks of cash in the middle, and were talking about pulling some of it back.
Reasonable minds can disagree on this, but that sort of stuff definitely happens. I agree with you that it’s collusion and it’s bullshit. But I don’t get shocked that some cash players feel differently.

We do this a ton. Idk why, but pretty much any table I play at does this. Maybe it's because people are playing well beyond what they're comfortable with? Too deepstacked? No clue.

But we'll regularly get down to 2 players and pick a number to "see it down". Generally there's no complaints from anyone. Most often, it's 2-3 people with REALLY non premium hands in circus games that want to gambol and pick a number (usually somewhere in the $1-$300 range) and run it down.

What's probably much much much worse, is when we're doing straddles and it starts getting up there. I may call blind call or throw in a large number of chips and start the "collusion". Along the lines of, "Raise $100. Also, just letting you know, I'm willing to run it down at $250.........". It's just speech, noone has to do it, it has no effect. Other than many times the next guy will call and mutter along the lines of "$250 would be good......" and before you know it half the table has folded and the remaining 4 hands are tossing in $250 before the flop even hits to just run it down.

This probably sounds horrid to anyone reading this, but in the moment it's entertaining and honestly has never ever remotely smelled of anything untoward or collusiony. Usually just idiots being idiots and gambooling. Prob helps that it's really only during circus and everyone knows eachother.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I live for these threads @MrCatPants. What a vibrant game to keep these stories coming!

For me, I give that bad behavior a pass IF it's an outlier to their usual behavior. Everyone has a bad day and frankly them cashing out and leaving might have been the most mature decision in that moment if they were upset. I'd follow up or just give them the benefit of the doubt in the short term.

Perhaps prior to the next game host could reiterate the rules and the reasoning for the rules. Certainly two people can agree to anything, but for the sake of the game we agree to norms to keep things moving and fair.

As for the cards, all of my copags are creased from peeling. I've given up. Some of my used WSOP decks from Spinetti's came that way. I truly believe amongst my group it's innocent, and at this point so many cards of all ranks and suits in each deck have the creases (all in the exact same spot) that I don't see how it could remain an effective system of marking cards. We just play on. If I'm naive to something I'd happily stand corrected, however.

Allow me to get on my soapbox:

Spoiler: On Running it Twice

I don't like it. Either run it once, or thrice. Someone needs to feel pain for the good of the game. Either way, decide fast, run the board faster and chop it fastest.

Awesome reply Tim!

Didn't someone mention that there was something going on in his personal life? It was overall a pretty rowdy and boisterous night, and I don't always hear real well in those conditions. Is it possible that the looser than normal atmosphere could have contributed?

 

[Rhodeman77]

If the game was all regs that play all the time together then some of the behavior would be okay since they all know each other well and understand there isn’t collusion going on (hopefully). But with new(er) players rules need to be enforced so that they feel comfortable knowing the game is fair. But ultimately he is out of line for making a scene in your home. It is disrespectful to you and the rest of your guests.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

He gets defensive and goes between "no casino does this" and "this isn't a casino whats up with all the rules?"
Did you walk past 2 roulette wheels to sit at this table? This isn't a casino, its my home, we have integrity here, we're not after a rake or the vig.

Rules hold everyone to the same standards, what are we animals? Maybe poker isn't your game, maybe I can pick up a slot machine for you.

No, there's only one roulette wheel in the room...