I'd be really suspicious if he had quad 5s in his hand!
How do you rule? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter CraigT78
- Start date
I am still confused as to how he felt out his own hand. If I am dealing a playing, I got the stub in my left hand and my hole cards are on the table. I don't pick up from a pile of 2 or 4 cards sitting on the table to deal out. I would say if it's friendly then it can be worked out but if we want to go by the absolute strictest rules I think that hand is dead. Personally if this is a game among friends that know each other and we aren't worried about angling, then the dealer just plays as if the hand was accidentally exposed.
When you rotate dealers, your game will run as smoothly as the average dealing competence among its players. This is what that looks like.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Assuming player #1 and villain have not tabled their hands (which I assume is the case). I would rule river bets are pulled back, "5" and "5" are returned to player #1's hand, and the rivers are dealt properly with villain having all options. (No protection for player #1 for exposing his hand.)
If villian had tabled hand, I say player #1's hand is dead, river action stands.
OP
OP
It was strange for sure. Probably had something to do with the dealer tray cut out and not a lot of room in front of him.
This is wild. How'd the dealer not realize his two rivers came from the last 2 cards in the deck. (Didn't know he grabbed from so few cards vs a thick deck).
I'd likely rule the final bets returned, new river cards dealt and not further action.
Most places would consider that an open muck. Cards in the middle are typically dead. This is different than HU play and exposing cards since its not in front of the player, its past the line.
I'd likely rule the final bets returned, new river cards dealt and not further action.
Most places would consider that an open muck. Cards in the middle are typically dead. This is different than HU play and exposing cards since its not in front of the player, its past the line.
Late night circus games
Cards are everywhere.
The stub, folds, your hand. Can easily happen
CantSpellPoker
Straight
It’s not uncommon to be down to the last couple cards when dealing river cards in double board or draw/discard circus games, so from that aspect, it’s very easy to see how this could happen. I’ve definitely seen situations where whoever’s dealing in a situation like that has to remind themselves, “Ok, this is the stub” before dealing cards out.
IDGI. Was this a four-card game?
If not, how could he manage to deal his two-card hand, since he also needed two burn cards?
If not, how could he manage to deal his two-card hand, since he also needed two burn cards?
OP said they don't burn in this spot.
Ah. (But why? Should be plenty of cards.)
CantSpellPoker
Straight
OP
OP
By rule, we do not burn in circus games. It's not game dependent.
OP
OP
Close. I think it was "double board stick it in your bum bum"
2 or 5 Omaha with a draw and two boards.
dead hand meaning what here?
I get it… Except that burns here could have prevented errors like this, and others. Burns help not just with security, but also slow things down enough to help avoid premature turns/rivers, etc.
OP
OP
Basically he didn't have five cards so his hand was dead and the pot is awarded to villain
I guess if you don’t ‘protect your hand’ then sure you can argue for someone’s hand is dead.
But in a cash game, heads up?
Bullllllllll shit
Samuel
Straight
My group has always burned for circus games and I'm good with that. One of the guys recently started burning in between streets for 7 stud games ("because that's how they do it in vegas") - we've never done that before but if it's on his deal... ::shrug::
I typically have two different card protectors in front of me - one for my cards and one for the stub when I'm dealing, helps me keep track sometimes (muck pile is up next to the board or off to the side a bit)...
No burns for circus games is standard at my game and other local games I've attended.
My house rule is that each player gets one "oops" per night where a poker rule "should" be enforced. Most of the time it applies when a player ahead raises and the oops player calls a smaller bet not realizing there was a raise in front. I allow them one chance to take back their bet and fold their hand in that situation.
So, I would probably allow the dealer to use his "oops" and retrieve his 5's provided that it could be verified that it was in fact the 2 cards from his stack and not from the stub. I would require them to stay face up, deal the real river cards, and allow play to resume with the villain first to act.
I think this situation sucks for the villain because I imagine any river bet at that point would/should result in an immediate fold from the dealer which nets $400 less than what the villain would have won if the hand was dead.... But none of that would have happened if the real river was dealt in the first place, so villain gets the original river and gains the advantage of knowledge of (part of) the dealer's hand, so it evens out.
After the first oops hand, all bets are off though.
My house rule is that each player gets one "oops" per night where a poker rule "should" be enforced. Most of the time it applies when a player ahead raises and the oops player calls a smaller bet not realizing there was a raise in front. I allow them one chance to take back their bet and fold their hand in that situation.
So, I would probably allow the dealer to use his "oops" and retrieve his 5's provided that it could be verified that it was in fact the 2 cards from his stack and not from the stub. I would require them to stay face up, deal the real river cards, and allow play to resume with the villain first to act.
I think this situation sucks for the villain because I imagine any river bet at that point would/should result in an immediate fold from the dealer which nets $400 less than what the villain would have won if the hand was dead.... But none of that would have happened if the real river was dealt in the first place, so villain gets the original river and gains the advantage of knowledge of (part of) the dealer's hand, so it evens out.
After the first oops hand, all bets are off though.
rustycheerio
Flush
what was done at the game seemed fair.
what you would have allowed also seems fair.
beauty of home games...
I’ve done something similar, ruling was I technically folded my cards when they went into the board, so additional bets were given back and pot went to opp. I would’ve won too… but sucks to not pay attention.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
If so, there can be no betting after the muck.
The dealer tried to do everyone a solid by dealing for the table, made a mistake. I'm fine with a by-the-book ruling (even though this dealer may not have been angle-shooting, the next one may -- this is a semi-public game, not a home game.)
So what's the rationale for the $100 call standing but the $300 river being returned? They were both premised on the same incorrect river cards.
His hand became invalid (and dead) as soon as the first "river" was dealt, certainly before the bet and raise.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Although people will argue "why use a dealer button in a self dealt game", this is the reason for using a button in a self dealt game. I put the muck under the dealer button, my cards under my card protector. If I used 2 protectors, I could conceivably grab the wrong one and deal the wrong cards.
Other people I have seen place the dealers button on the stub, knowing that they must lift the button marked "dealer" in order to deal anything.
No protector + no use of the button just opens the door for trouble.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
The dealer in this hand was dealing for the table, so I'm pretty sure a dealer button was being used. Mistakes still happen.
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
You're right, in this hand. Heathens like @bernielomax have said there's no use for a dealer button in a self-dealt game. He's wrong, I'm just repeating what he's said.
Invalid or illegal hands are generally considered to be dead upon discovery, and any wagering prior to discovery is not altered by the discovery.
One example is if an incorrect number of cards are discovered in a hand -- let's say three (or five) cards in a 4-card Omaha game -- the hand is ruled dead when the incorrect number of cards is discovered, regardless of when it happens (whether flop, turn, or river), and any action prior to the discovery stands.
How the hand became fouled is irrelevant. Once discovered, it's dead.
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