PAHWM: QQ in a 1/3/6 game (6 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

SETUP:

A 1/3 cash game with optional $6 UTG straddles. About half the players straddle (not me).

MAIN VILLAINS:

BB is a smart player who is exceptionally good at hand reading. Sees the board clearly in relation to opponents' ranges and tendencies. Good balance of value and bluffs. He has both me and the other villain covered.

Button understands the game quite well, but can get too loose and gambly. He's also easily tilted, and has been raising to larger than usual sizes preflop (for this game), angrily and often, since dusting off his first buyin a couple of orbits ago.

I have a history of winning big pots against both bluffcatching river bluffs, but especially vs the tilty Button guy. Both are two of the more active and aggressive players in this private game.

I have the Button slightly covered. We're a little less than 170 BB effective (84 if computing from the straddle instead).

PREFLOP ACTION:

UTG straddles for $6. There's two limps from middle positions.

Button raises to $35, so $57 so far in the pot when it gets to me.

I raise to $125 from the small blind with .

I am trying here (and expecting) to either take it down now--not a bad outcome out of position--or get heads-up to the flop with the tilty Button.

To my surprise, the BB goes into the tank. He actually asks me, "How much do you have behind?" (About $450, though I just lift my hands to make sure he can see.) He at this point is not paying attention to the Button who raised to $35.

I typically interpret this question from a generic studied player to suggest a middling pocket pair trying to decide if they are getting correct implied odds to set-mine. (Here, he isn't, given stack sizes, unless maybe if the Button comes along with his slightly smaller stack.) Or, the person is looking to find out how much he's on the hook for if he raises and gets five-bet.

Finally the BB flats my $125 3bet, which seems odd for this player. (I'd usually expect him to fold or 4bet.)

The straddles and limpers fold, and after some theatrical sighing and eyerolling the Button calls as well.

So we are threeway to the flop with $393 in the pot, and again I have in the small blind.

Any thoughts so far?

 

[JMC9389]

Button is going to be opening with a wider range given his mentality and position. I'm much more concerned with what the big blind has.

I'm folding just about any flop with a king or an ace, and jamming just about anything else.

 

[Taghkanic]

@JMC9389 -- agreed. I'm going to move right to the flop as I don't see much controversial about my preflop decision, but happy to entertain other thoughts pre... So:

THE FLOP:



I check, with about $450 behind. I only have slightly more than one pot sized bet left.

Here, I am checking almost my entire range almost regardless of texture, being out of position to two of the more aggressive players at the table, and then evaluating based on their actions.

If it's an uncoordinated flop with nothing higher than a jack, I'm probably check raising all in against any bet. If they flopped a set, oh well.

Instead here, the ace on the flop seems especially bad for me given the preflop action. Both of them have pretty narrow calling ranges against me (perceived as tight) at that size. At least one of them should have a big Ax hand, probably suited. Maybe AKo.

I could try to represent a big Ax hand, but don't expect that to get through much. Maybe some flush draws call, but there aren't as many of those in their ranges given my big preflop bet and the ace of clubs on the board. I'm mainly getting called by AK and sets that crush me.

I'm expecting BB or Button to bet, and me having to give up.

But again to my surprise it checks through.

Flop thoughts? What does the checkaround tell us, if anything?

 

[JMC9389]

The check through to me says that your queens are good for right now. Any vulnerable ace/x hand is betting out in a bloated pot regardless. I don't see big blind getting trappy. Button should be leading out unless he totally missed and is waving the white flag.

I'm out of there if you bet the turn and BB reraises, but I'm betting any clean turn card for value.

 

[Taghkanic]

The check through to me says that your queens are good for right now. Any vulnerable ace/x hand is betting out in a bloated pot regardless.

I would think so. Even the better players in this game will see the flop flush draw and almost always bet their top pair/good kicker for protection.

Meanwhile, I would normally expect either of these players to make a move if they have the flush draw after I check. I did not consider that there probably weren't a lot of suited connectors calling my raise pre though given the profiles anything was possible. I've seen both call big preflop bets with stuff as speculative as 67s.

Both of these (especially the Button) are looking to get into big hands where they can crack better for a large score, more than grinding out small edges.

I don't see big blind getting trappy. Button should be leading out unless he totally missed and is waving the white flag.

Probably not, although given the odd action I was worried that BB had either AA or KK which for some reason didn't shove over my raise pre, or flopped a set of nines and was expecting aggro-tilty Button to stab after two checks.

The Button's check screams weakness/fear, given that this player loves to bet when it checks around to him postflop, especially with draws or even just blockers.

I'm out of there if you bet the turn and BB reraises, but I'm betting any clean turn card for value.

The turn was a doozie...

 

[JMC9389]

Can I guess?

Queen of clubs.

 

[Taghkanic]

Bullseye!

Turn is the .

So I turn a set, and the front door flush has come in.

 

[Taghkanic]

TURN ACTION:

I think for a bit, though not too long because I think it could give too much away.

I decide to check again, mainly because (a) I'm out of position, and (b) to underrep my set.

I felt at the time that if I led out, I didn't really have enough value targets. I'm getting called by what? Mainly made flushes and sets of aces. There are almost no combos of AQ left, and I think zero combos of A9/A6 given the preflop action.

It felt to me like the classic "only get called by better / everything worse folds." But then taking down the pot now wasn't such a terrible outcome either.

Maybe I can get called by AxKc, drawing to the nut flush. Since the Ac and Qc are on the board, a ton of other one-card flush draws are off the table. Maybe one of these guys could call pre with KcJc or JcTc, but those just made their hands... And again would often bet the flop. JxJc? Maybe that calls, I dunno.

By checking, I have some chance of getting good info and maybe getting a stab from worse. I would especially be inclined to call a bet by the button here on the turn if it checked to him...

But it checks through *again.* Holy crap, either someone is trapping like crazy or my set is good.

However, if I had it to do over I would bet suspiciously small on the turn. Maybe go back to that original $125 preflop bet. Or even just $100. That might have seemed scarier than a big bet to this table. Either take it down now or get some clearer reads.

 

[Taghkanic]

Exciting river conclusion tomorrow...

 

[Kam]

stab in the dark, river a blank.

Hero QQQ > Villain BB 999 > Button Ax?

Or did the river pair the board and all hell broke loose?

 

[Legend5555]

Everything up to the turn is good in my book.

I'd lead with though. And probably just jam as we only have about a pot sized bet left. It's very hard for either of them to have a flush or AA given the action. AA would have just jammed pre to avoid a 3-way pot, and given that both the and are on the board, it means the only real flushes are or unless one of them is getting very out of line. And both of those seem unlikely from either unless button is really tilting kinda hard.

If either of them have KK, JJ, or TT, you probably aren't getting any money anyway. But if either of them have AK, this is our best chance to get all the money. Will AK bet? Maybe. But I also think it would have bet flop. And now we are in a spot where the river could kill all the action if it does check through. And if you check jam, you are only repping AK or better. The only saving grace is that the pot will be so big, they will probably call anyway unless they have an air ball. But how often are people really bluffing in a 3-bet, multi-way pot?

 

[Taghkanic]

Pot is $393 before rake.

River:

Final board:



<ore than ever I check.

BB checks.

Button thinks for a while then bets his remaining $375.

I tank.

I’ve caught this specific player bluffing repeatedly in our last two sessions, taking a ton of money off him. Is he now playing a metagame, where he finally has it this time, and is hoping I’ll bluffcatch again? Or is he just doing his usual thing, having not learned anything from our previous clashes?

Does he have a weak one-card flush, e.g. a pocket pair with one club (something like )? Or even a made flush which didn't act on the turn (something like )?

Yes, I am seeing monsters. Because there are four clubs on the board...

He is likely to have bet all pocket pairs from the button and even some suited connectors, and also loosely overcalling my roughly 3x raise after the BB called. He has hard time folding anytime he has money in the pot, and loves to wade into potentially big hands to try to make something happen.

All the checking on the flop and turn could allow those one-card flushes, which otherwise would seem improbable, to get there.

Heads-up I probably sigh-call given the player. Or flip a coin to decide. I have to be right roughly 32% of the time against just him.

What finally caused me to fold was that we were multiway. The player in the BB to my immediate left is smart and tricky. He too might have a one-card flush which has more showdown value than anything else, but would call a bet from the gambly/tilted guy.

I finally fold...

 

[Taghkanic]

... and the BB goes into the tank.

While I was thinking he was staring down the Button, and continues to do so.

After a good 3-4 minutes he calls with .

Button looks exasperated and mucks his hand. The BB doesn't demand to see it, but asks what he had. He claims he had JJ without a club.

So I would have won if the Button checked. I remarked (probably unwisely) that his bluff cost us *both* almost $400. This infuriated him, though it was entirely accurate.

 

[Taghkanic]

The Button busted only a few hands later and stormed out. I discussed the hand a little bit with the Big Blind later.

He claimed that he finally called because of a physical tell—that while I was tanking, he noticed that the Button’s pulse was going crazy in his neck.

I said I was surprised he didn't bet the flop, given that he had top/top and there was a flush draw on the board. He said he didn't think either of us put in $125 preflop with suited connectors, and was afraid I had a set of aces as the 3bettor, or that the Button could have flopped a set of 9s. And that if we didn't have those hands, he could get more value on later streets by checking.

Then the board ran out in such a way as to freeze the action for everyone (though he should have bet at least the turn if he didn't think made flushes were possible at that stage).

He said he would have folded if I called the Button’s river shove.

I think my biggest mistake was not betting something, even only 1/4-1/3rd pot, on the turn. And not seeing that there were very very few possible made flushes on the turn. My check/fold on the river I think was correct in theory if incorrect for their specific hands.

 

[ChipMonster]

I'd lead with though. And probably just jam as we only have about a pot sized bet left. It's very hard for either of them to have a flush or AA given the action. AA would have just jammed pre to avoid a 3-way pot, and given that both the and are on the board, it means the only real flushes are or unless one of them is getting very out of line. And both of those seem unlikely from either unless button is really tilting kinda hard.

Agree on this 100%

 

[Jers28]

Agree on this 100%

Same

 

[Taghkanic]

And both of those seem unlikely from either unless button is really tilting kinda hard.

Well, the Button guy was already tilting hard. He had lost his first buy-in ($600) pretty quickly, and kept saying how gross it was, and raising big constantly before this occurred, as if to punish people for having the temerity to come into hands he'd raised. (He was tilting even moreso after his bluff got called — practically exploded when I pointed out that he cost us both money.)

Also he is very much the kind of guy who takes a “any two suited cards” approach preflop. Less so when someone reraises him 3x+, but still capable of it. He always seems to really really want to try to crack other people’s big hands.

That said I thought a one-card flush draw on the turn was much more likely than a two-card one for him. Such as the TxTc or JxJc hands I mentioned earlier. (This is also a player who tends to overvalue backdoor draws on the flop. I’ve played with him maybe 15-16 times before.)

The multiway aspect also really screwed with my ability to fully think this through in-game. The BB is a player I respect — smart, tough, puts a lot of pressure on. It was uncharacteristic how passively he played AK here. Stuck out of position between a strong player and a much looser tilted one, I felt hamstrung from the flop forward despite the Q turn.

On that turn, I was prepared to jam after I checked — and expected one of these guys to fire there. Yes, someone could have a made flush already but the one-card draws were much more likely, and I’d have wanted to charge those. The surprise was that neither bet the turn so I lost the chance to get it in by checking for deception/information, a mistake in retrospect.

Then came the nastier surprise of the fourth club coming on the river. I didn't play it perfectly but it was also a perfect storm of awkward runouts. Make that turn the other queen in the deck, or the river any offsuit card, and I am in like Flynn.

 

[Kam]

He claimed that he finally called because of a physical tell—that while I was tanking, he noticed that the Button’s pulse was going crazy in his neck.

I forget what Pro it was that I seen describing how to interpret this tell. Basically after any big move, like an all in raise on the river, your adrenaline will be going - so your pulse is pumping waiting for the response. If you have it, you’re pulse will calm down and slow after 30-60 secs, if you’re bluffing, you continue to beat fast since not only is it adrenaline but also the stress of being caught. Hence why you see quite a few players at high stakes tournies cover their neck with hoodies/scarves etc.

I’ve never tried to pick up on this, but really good play by the BB. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Kam]

Ok, it was DNegs describing Fedor’s take on it that I remembered:

 

[suchj0sh]

I think you’re getting called by tons of stuff on the turn, so a bet would’ve been good.

River fold is pretty trivial in the middle of two players.

 

[Taghkanic]

Overall except for the Button guy bluffing the river yet again, the two villains did not play the flop or turn at all as I am accustomed to them playing it. I suspect this is because of my big 3bet preflop — that they don't see me doing that too often in this game, and were walking on eggshells thinking I had them crushed somehow. At least until I checked for the third time and then the Button tried to salvage his hand at the end as usual.

 

[Taghkanic]

Ok, it was DNegs describing Fedor’s take on it that I remembered:

Pretty sure Zach Elwood’s book also details this.

 

[Kam]

Pretty sure Zach Elwood’s book also details this.

I went to check that out, turns out I already bought it and it’s in my line up. Will listen to it next.