mucked or not??? (1 Viewer)

[sonofneeway]

This came up last night at our weekly Elk's Club Poker Tournament. Player A raised, Player B called, Player C went all in for less creating a small side pot for A&B. No more betting after the flop, turn or river. An Ace on the river and when A&B checked, C flopped over an Ace. Player A quickly flashed her cards (although nobody got a good look) and mucked them face down stating she only had Queen high. Player B laid his cards on the table face up (Q 10) and then player A says she had the same hand. I reached for the side pot to give it to B and A through a fit about how she had Q 10 as well and she flashed her cards before mucking. I told her that she plays in enough WSOP events that she should know that her hand was mucked and she could not dig through the muck to find a Q 10. She kept saying that he showed her hand even though no one else at the table could confirm that they saw both cards.

It was a very small side pot and not a serious game at all so we split it and dealt the next hand. Player A could not believe that I was making such a big deal about it and that she showed her hand before mucking. She is one of those by the book players and usually make everyone still in the hand to flip their cards up if there is an all in situation. Apparently that did not need to occur last night on this hand.

Was I correct in declaring her hand mucked and Player B who showed his hand correctly should have gotten the whole side pot?

 

[GamingWithChips]

To me it sounds like player A made a mistake and doesn't want to accept the consequences. Knowing it's a small amount too, Player A needs to put their hand up an admit they made a mistake and move on.

 

[elPadroni]

Yes you were totally correct. Player A should know better.

 

[Rieguy]

It's a mucked hand, for sure, but depending on the host and home game it's possible they could allow it and just claim it's a friendly home. Not too much recourse for protest there, but you certainly made the correct by-the-book ruling. Guest questioning host's ruling in your scenario is out of line.

 

[TheJestyr]

Agreed. Mucked hand. In a friendly game maybe you still split the pot with her, but that opens up some angles for future pots. I'd have done the same in your shoes.

 

[Jers28]

She mucked her hand. Too bad. I’d be embarrassed to even ask if it was my cards in the muck.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Mmmm some rules about seeing if the hand was discernible. I'm fine with either ruling long as the house is consistent. If the hand is pulled into the muck it's gone but if it's sitting next to the board, I might use discretion and consider the showing 'tabling'.

 

[casinochipper22]

you were correct. Only a tabled hand can be read and is live. the backs of the cards have to be on the felt in order to win the pot. If she had turned them over, backs on the felt for one second, then picked them up and threw them into the muck, then it is a live hand and she could be awarded the pot.

 

[davesilver88]

Mucked. Sounds like they should know better and not be a baby about it.

In home game settings, where the host makes a judgement call, I could see that @NotRealNameNoSir brings up a reasonable scenario.

 

[Jaxen]

If she indeed plays WSOP events, then she knows enough that it feels like an angle shoot to me.

 

[upNdown]

I think you were completely correct and I disagree with the idea that she could have been treated differently in a friendly home game. If she pulled that shit after she got bluffed, you wouldn't let her pull her hand out of the muck; this is barely different. Also screw her for even asking - that's offensive and disruptive.
The only situation I could imagine allowing her to pull her hand out of the muck is if she were an amateur whale who was good for the game. But even that feels gross.

 

[phil7488]

Clearly a muck. You can make a case for retrieving mucked cards if there is 100% certainty which cards were theirs, but if it was piled in with the rest of the muck then too bad.

 

[Machine]

player A says she had the same hand.

It doesn't matter if she flashes her hand; it's dead. It doesn't matter if she showed the whole table and everyone saw it.

And here is the sticking point: if she tabled her hand and then mucked, she would be entitled to 1/2 the pot. She didn't place her hand face up on the table; she flashed it, then threw her interest in the pot away.

 

[mdt11]

In some card rooms, if the mucked cards are “retrievable,” ie., easily identifiable that those are their cards, you can pick the cards up and flip them over. Otherwise, by the books, it is a muck (especially if she said “fold”). Player B shouldn’t even need to table their hand to be awarded the side pot.

That said, as with many things on here in home game settings, there can be a little bit of grace. But it sounds like this is an experienced player who should know better.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Flip cards fully for them to be valid. Flashing cards doesn't mean crap. If they mucked and in other cards, it's mucked.

If they are clear on the table, we would allow the flip and chop. But I'd dish them shit the rest of the night as punishment.

 

[BPTDirector]

We play you mucked you’re f**ked, she mucked her hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

"Tabled" has a very specific definition. Cards face up, backs on the table for all to read.

Flashing a hand and releasing it is not at all the same as "tabled" and once the cards are released the player has to understand the consequences are not in her hand.

There is an exception to the rules to give a decision maker an out to retrieve completely identifiable cards if it's in the best interest of the game. Digging through the muck is not at all identifiable.

Just table in turn and avoid the issue. Stop the game playing at the river where you don't want to show in turn, but still hold your cards just in case.

 

[JustinInMN]

This came up last night at our weekly Elk's Club Poker Tournament. Player A raised, Player B called, Player C went all in for less creating a small side pot for A&B. No more betting after the flop, turn or river. An Ace on the river and when A&B checked, C flopped over an Ace. Player A quickly flashed her cards (although nobody got a good look) and mucked them face down stating she only had Queen high. Player B laid his cards on the table face up (Q 10) and then player A says she had the same hand. I reached for the side pot to give it to B and A through a fit about how she had Q 10 as well and she flashed her cards before mucking.

I am also going to point out there is a procedure error here. If there are side pots, the main pot is always awarded last. So even if C tabled, dealer could have been more direct about saying the side pot between A & B showdown is first. A also needs to be aware of this situation as well, not to absolve her. But that extra prompt might have made a more clear understanding of the situation.

 

[grahamplayscards]

This came up last night at our weekly Elk's Club Poker Tournament. Player A raised, Player B called, Player C went all in for less creating a small side pot for A&B. No more betting after the flop, turn or river. An Ace on the river and when A&B checked, C flopped over an Ace. Player A quickly flashed her cards (although nobody got a good look) and mucked them face down stating she only had Queen high. Player B laid his cards on the table face up (Q 10) and then player A says she had the same hand. I reached for the side pot to give it to B and A through a fit about how she had Q 10 as well and she flashed her cards before mucking. I told her that she plays in enough WSOP events that she should know that her hand was mucked and she could not dig through the muck to find a Q 10. She kept saying that he showed her hand even though no one else at the table could confirm that they saw both cards.

It was a very small side pot and not a serious game at all so we split it and dealt the next hand. Player A could not believe that I was making such a big deal about it and that she showed her hand before mucking. She is one of those by the book players and usually make everyone still in the hand to flip their cards up if there is an all in situation. Apparently that did not need to occur last night on this hand.

Was I correct in declaring her hand mucked and Player B who showed his hand correctly should have gotten the whole side pot?

Hand was mucked. Cards have to be tabled (flat on their back on the table) to speak.

Can’t say whether it’s worth being a rules stickler, but I’d consider the hand mucked 100/100 times

 

[ekricket]

I am also going to point out there is a procedure error here. If there are side pots, the main pot is always awarded last. So even if C tabled, dealer could have been more direct about saying the side pot between A & B showdown is first. A also needs to be aware of this situation as well, not to absolve her. But that extra prompt might have made a more clear understanding of the situation.

Last pot split should always be the first awarded. Then the winning cards are compared to the next split pot, etc… until you do the main pot last.

Minor point - the main pot should never never never be put in front of the player going all. It helps when the small stack realizes they won the main and start grabbing before the other pots are awarded.

If you don’t think awarding pots in opposite order they were created - LIFO - it’s important, then I’m sure your game is a cluster in other areas as well and you are wondering why your game is always chaos

 

[Felt_Lizard]

Interesting.

It would seem that she wants to "have her cake, and eat it too."

But...we figured this out, waaaaay back in the dark ages.

BURN HER!

BURN HER AT THE CAKE!

 

[joeyshin]

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/184cpk8B8C/?mibextid=wwXIfr

 

[thePokerClub]

It was totally mucking mucked.