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Did I make the right call here as a dealer? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Preditor
- Start date
My intent wasn't to make you feel worse. I appreciate you posting, and I think others will learn from it as well.
This is how we learn.
If you're already doing buy-ins, running the clock, running the tourny, software or not, and playing you have to understand your role(s) - You are never going to enjoy the game, and likely not focus enough to do well.
Offer to do as much as possible but not play. I hope you deal again, maybe only deal the next few times so that you can focus just on it.
After accepting and helping, explain 'Hey next week, I'm only going to be a player'
Also don't forget the TDA is free and you can download it to your mobile device. It doesn't have to be Vegas, you can understand the technical calls and adjust for your game.
If you are the guy they call over, there is also a procedure; you'd first ask the dealer what's up, then the players involved in the hand, then the table. You could then confer with someone else, and then announce what you are going to do.
Just breath, don't worry next week something else will make them forget all about it.
This is how we learn.
If you're already doing buy-ins, running the clock, running the tourny, software or not, and playing you have to understand your role(s) - You are never going to enjoy the game, and likely not focus enough to do well.
Offer to do as much as possible but not play. I hope you deal again, maybe only deal the next few times so that you can focus just on it.
After accepting and helping, explain 'Hey next week, I'm only going to be a player'
Also don't forget the TDA is free and you can download it to your mobile device. It doesn't have to be Vegas, you can understand the technical calls and adjust for your game.
If you are the guy they call over, there is also a procedure; you'd first ask the dealer what's up, then the players involved in the hand, then the table. You could then confer with someone else, and then announce what you are going to do.
Just breath, don't worry next week something else will make them forget all about it.
OP
OP
Preditor
Two Pair
You're fine! I don't feel worse, and you caveated your post just fine.
I think in the moment, my mind was torn between "Cards speak" and "Verbal is binding". I just didn't have enough experience to know at the moment which should win out in a showdown scenario. When she said she can't beat a hand, I just assumed that should be a binding surrender the way a fold or call is.
This was also coming off the heels of her verbally binding herself to betting 600 since she declared a bet of 300. So verbal winning out made sense to me in the moment.
I've just personally never run into this situation on the river (and it seems rare).
But it is good to know for the future. Next time I'll be sure they are deliberately mucking to keep things smooth.
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In Greek, the lady involved would be called a kologria (google it). 
Forgot to insert this quote from WedgeRock:
I think that's true when facing action. At showdown, there is no more action.
This is true, but, fold is fold. If a guy calls fold and the other guy throws his cards in, to whom do you award the pot? Verbal is binding. By verbalizing his action has he not forfeited any claim to the pot? Where do you draw the line? Just because there's no more betting doesn't mean there isn't action that can be influenced.
I think that's true when facing action. At showdown, there is no more action.
This is true, but, fold is fold. If a guy calls fold and the other guy throws his cards in, to whom do you award the pot? Verbal is binding. By verbalizing his action has he not forfeited any claim to the pot? Where do you draw the line? Just because there's no more betting doesn't mean there isn't action that can be influenced.
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No, folding is an action. Mucking is a different action. Verbal is not binding at showdown, "cards speak". I can say raise, it means nothing. I can say call, it means nothing, I can say "I have the nuts" and it means nothing. Cards can either be tabled, or mucked, in betting order. If I say "fold" and the other guy mucks his cards, I should win the pot since I have the only live hand. A competent floor will defend the rec if the hand is retrievable but its a slippery slope for sure. NEVER MUCK YOUR HAND UNTIL YOU GET THE POT!
If I'm an angling douche I can say "You got it.", "I got nothing.", "You win." when I have the nuts. This sounds like me conceding, but when you show your bluff catcher, I can show you the nuts and take the pot. My words mean nothing. Cards speak, I am a player that has reached showdown with a live hand, it can either be tabled or mucked, not folded.
MrCatPants
Full House
Cards speak and hand is not mucked. Not even verbally folded. Worst accusation here is a slow roll.
In my game i actively make people muck if they are holding on to their cards. Sometimes people want to keep them or keep them separate if they fold. Always helps to force clarity of action. Disputes happen when living in the gray.
In my game i actively make people muck if they are holding on to their cards. Sometimes people want to keep them or keep them separate if they fold. Always helps to force clarity of action. Disputes happen when living in the gray.
None of this relates to what I was referring, other than the word fold. I'd like to here from someone in a casino, or bonfire card room, as to what their policy is. I believe fold is binding, even at showdown. I may be wrong, but, would like to hear from a floor boss.
When I googled this Google AI referred me to TDA rules and stated that fold is binding, even at showdown.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Agree with all except the bolded part. If you say you have a hand you don't have, and as a result someone mucks, the house may penalize you, including awarding the pot to the person you duped (and IMO this is the correct ruling).
Per TDA:
A better result is if the offending player apologizes for causing the mistake and concedes the pot to the player he tricked, but of course you'll only get that from an honest guy who was playing around, never from an angle shooter.
Jimulacrum
Full House
AI chat bots are a cross between a hyper-powered search engine and a pathological liar.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Good stuff. Agree with apologizing. It was probably not a great experience on her end.
Definitely let someone else handle dealing while you're serving as TD.
My point exactly, if an idiot like a chatbot can see my logic, why can't you guys?
GamingWithChips
Two Pair
And the worst possible combination of those to boot
Sure. I worked as a dealer and floor for a long time but I understand needing credentials.
We can see your logic, we just disagree. There's no folding in this situation. There's live hands and dead hands. If I said fold it means nothing. If you say fold, dealer should hold their hand out towards you. If you throw your cards face up towards him and they hit the table on their backs, and it beats the current highest hand showing, that's tabled and should be awarded the pot. This is to prevent angling and 'bluffing' after action is done and showdown has started.
Only grey area I can see is if you toss your cards in and only one is showing, but that one is top pair or whatever to be the winner. Youd need to show both to claim the pot and you're the only one allowed to flip em. Huh! Don't know if dealer should request you flip the other.
LeLe
4 of a Kind
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OP just ruined the Old Lady's Slow roll and wrongfully assume it a mucks.
Just chalk it up as experience moving forward
Just chalk it up as experience moving forward
@casinochipper22 Could I get a ruling? NLHE, tournament on the river no all-ins. P1 bets, P2 calls. P2 shows a set. P1 says fold, they throw their hand towards you as the dealer and one falls face up/tabled, the other falls face down. The face-up card is enough to beat the current tabled high hand, let's say its a
that makes a flush to beat the set that P2 tabled. You have no info on the 2nd card. Both are easily discernible and separate from muck and board.Do you ask the player to flip the other card? Do you flip it yourself? or do you just fold it without saying anything?
No such thing as a verbal muck. If she has the cards in her hand, they are valid.
But a talk about tabling your hand and letting the cards play would occur....
But a talk about tabling your hand and letting the cards play would occur....
Rakrul
Flush
...on acid and halucinates.
upNdown
Royal Flush
For what it’s worth, this seems outrageous to me, if a player is dedicated dealing a tournament all night without compensation. How are you supposed to play your best and enjoy yourself when you’re dealing every hand?
There might not be any reasonable solutions to this if it’s a low stakes tournament at a social club. But it sucks.
OP
OP
Preditor
Two Pair
I may be wrong, but believe compensating dealers is an issue for legal reasons. Outside of cash games (where there are non-playing dealers and they get tipped), my understanding it that there's no legal mechanism to have dedicated, compensated dealers.
After I busted, I stayed and dealt the final table and got tipped for it. But this is definitely a social club (buy-in for this tournament was $100).
For a long time, it was a self-dealt game. But as the game grew (we had 7 tables Saturday) the number of hands-per-orbit varied wildly per table. And there are a lot of older people there who just can't deal well.
So the decision was made a few years ago to have dedicated player/dealers at the table. There are a few WSOP dealers who love doing it. And the ones who are capable but don't love it, we put them on the tables first to break.
upNdown
Royal Flush
I’ve heard of situations where dedicated dealers get a free or reduced entry fee. But who knows what your local laws say about that.
I get it. I’d probably choose to be a dedicated dealer for free too, if that’s what it takes to have a tournament. But that’s a lot less fun than just playing, without that constant responsibility.
Jimulacrum
Full House
We don't have dedicated dealers at the club where I play, but TD duties are on a sign-up basis, and whoever serves as TD gets an extra 2,500 chips for that tournament (on a 20K buy-in).
Something like that could be a good option to compensate your dealers and TDs without running into a legal hazard by paying in cash. And it would be fair! As noted, serving as TD and/or dealer tends to chip into your performance, and the extra chips should help you weather that.
casinochipper22
Full House
you fold it faster than they can blink an eye! well, fast enough that no one can say anything about the hand, but not so fast the player will say, why did you fold it so fast, and then a player at the table hates you. haha. delicate situation, but that is a fold.@casinochipper22 Could I get a ruling? NLHE, tournament on the river no all-ins. P1 bets, P2 calls. P2 shows a set. P1 says fold, they throw their hand towards you as the dealer and one falls face up/tabled, the other falls face down. The face-up card is enough to beat the current tabled high hand, let's say its a
Do you ask the player to flip the other card? Do you flip it yourself? or do you just fold it without saying anything?
if it was very obvious the player is trying to table their hand, like both cards are face up in the players hand and they are flopped on the table and one bounces over, then you can wait until they turn it back over. as a dealer, you are never supposed to turn a hand/card over at showdown.
OP
OP
Preditor
Two Pair
I can't really give discounts, and I also think extra chips is a bit hard to quantify. Extra chips and discounts also becomes confusing if a dealer gets knocked out. When that happens someone else at the table is encouraged to take over. Do they then get an extra chip or discount 2-3 hours into the tournament?
Maybe the answer here is to encourage tipping of the dealers earlier in the night. Right now the winners often throw $20 to the person dealing final table (I dealt the final table and made $140); but I think we should encourage people too tip earlier; to throw $5-10 towards their dealers at the beginning of the night.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Agree. Player's clear intent was to concede. Grab the cards and muck them ASAP. The
alone isn't enough to claim the pot, you're not allowed to tell the player or flip his other card for him, and once the cards are gone, they're gone.Another case like this can happen where the person clearly intends to table the cards, but one of them flips face-down by mistake. In a home game where I know the players, I'll flip that second card face-up every time. In a casino, never. Let the player correct it himself. Tabling the hand properly is the player's responsibility.
I assume you are not referring to situations where you kill a losing hand at showdown.
Frogzilla
Straight Flush
i believe the correct response here is “what are YOU doing”
But no, she wins the hand.
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