Cash Game Exposed Card Reminder (1 Viewer)

[CraigT78]

Both cases refer to relevant information players may use to inform their decisions. They also both refer to information that appears only briefly at the table and then vanishes, and thus may not be remembered by everyone, including the dealer.

This all raises some questions for me, and questions like this are part of the reason I land on the "no" side. I direct them at anyone saying the dealer should tell the guy the card, not just you, Craig.

How long after the dealer's presentation of the exposed card should the dealer have to tell them what it was? That round only, the next round, or all the way to showdown?

If the dealer doesn't remember the card, should he fish it out of the burn pile?

If more than one card was exposed (e.g., by a player folding sloppily), should the dealer have to memorize and recount all of them on demand too? If they're in the muck and he can't remember them, what then?

Great points and I guess it is more variable than a hard and fast rule. In a home game I’m leaning to more info the better - for exposed hands. If not the dealer, another player. But for discard counts, and stuff like that - I say no. One player per hand. An exposed card is an exposed card. Billy was getting a beer, he shouldn’t be penalized if he missed seeing the K flip. He asks - someone should reply.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If the poll question was ‘What should the rule be?’ then I would agree on the ‘No’ 100%. Keeps it simple and fair. Since it’s open to dealer’s choice of what to do, I think it’s fine either way. If I had a choice as dealer, I might be kinder to the player who tips well and asks, and then give an ‘I don’t remember’ to the asshole who doesn’t tip and is bad for the table.

And this is a great example of why dealers should be beholden to a strict rule rather than free to make these decisions on their own. You've essentially just said you'd be willing to give relevant decision-making information only to people who bribe you for it, and I doubt you'd be the only one.

Small-scale corruption is not something I'd want to foster.

 

[Poker Zombie]

If I'm a dealer in a room with this rule, my answer is "I don't remember" 100% of the time.

Does your memory improve if the player is a good tipper?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Does your memory improve if the player is a good tipper?

Nope. I don't want to ever open the door to accusations of playing favorites or accepting bribes.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Then that's your problem. The dealer isn't there to memorize the details of the hand for you and recount them on demand. He is only there to present the cards, bets, etc. and clarify any current goings-on.

I agree it's not his responsibility, but you think he should refrain from answering a simple question just out of principle?
This whole scenario doesn't happen often but whenever I have heard someone ask the dealer "What was that flipped card" the dealer simply answers and everyone moves on without a second thought.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Nope. I don't want to ever open the door to accusations of playing favorites or accepting bribes.

You must have never been a public servant, a desk clerk at a Vegas hotel, or a valet.

 

[fieldsy]

The responses on this seem unnecessarily harsh to me, especially given the scenario and especially in a home game. You're on the flop, so the exposed card is now the burn card, and there's only one burn card out there. Why make this a memory test? It's not like asking for the folded up cards in stud games, this was something that was announced to the table. I can imagine a casino having a rule that the dealer can't repeat it because of the potential for abuse (what if the dealer doesn't remember, then the dealer picking up the burn card may be a tricky area). But in a home game keep some perspective. The player has already potentially given up information just by asking. What's the problem in answering the question if the answer is easily available?

 

[DarPodo]

And this is a great example of why dealers should be beholden to a strict rule rather than free to make these decisions on their own. You've essentially just said you'd be willing to give relevant decision-making information only to people who bribe you for it, and I doubt you'd be the only one.

Small-scale corruption is not something I'd want to foster.

Hello everyone and welcome to the table. My name is Podo. If you tip me I'll reveal misdeals. I'm bribing you.

I guess my original reply did sound like I was saying 'tip me to get additional information'. I meant it generally. A decent person will generally get treated better by dealers than the complete asshats who ruin games. That's a situation where revealing the card versus 'I don't know' can manifest itself without a rule. I am in favor for a rule of don't reveal whether the card is known or not.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Billy was getting a beer, he shouldn’t be penalized if he missed seeing the K flip.

This required action at the Windy Crest PR gets special treatment.

 

[Himewad]

Some of you guys take this game way too seriously. If this sort of thing happens in my home game, we leave the exposed card face up the entire hand. Not a big deal IMO. I don’t play in casinos, so I don’t really care what they do.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Some of you guys take this game way too seriously. If this sort of thing happens in my home game, we leave the exposed card face up the entire hand. Not a big deal IMO. I don’t play in casinos, so I don’t really care what they do.

We usually leave it face up until it comes into play. Then it is flipped back over and thrown into the muck as the burn.

 

[pltrgyst]

Show me the rule that says the dealer is not allowed to repeat what the exposed card was.

Show me a rule describing how to handle the situation if the dealer gets the formerly exposed card wrong.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Show me a rule describing how to handle the situation if the dealer gets the formerly exposed card wrong.

100% possible and good for an arguments sake, but really who has ever seen that happen??
AND if the dealer accidentally said the wrong card no one at the table would correct them?

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't know the official rule off hand, but it seems to me the best procedure is put the flashed card on top of the stub face up, announce it to the table. And then burn it face down at the close of action.

Once the card goes down I don't think anyone is obliged to answer and the more time that passes from that moment, the less likely the answer is to be right anyway.

I think players are obligated to take ownership of the situation to a point where one clean announcement before action starts should be sufficient.

I really have no sympathy for headphone guy as described in the OP.

 

[DoubleEagle]

They dont deal cards unless in seat at every casino i have been to.

They do in a tournament.

 

[DoubleEagle]

In a tournament his hand is dead when the last hole card is dealt, there is no "wait until it's his turn to fold". In a cash game, if he's not at his seat, he does not get cards.

My example clearly stated he got back in time to play his hand, meaning before the last card was dealt.

 

[Poker Zombie]

My example clearly stated he got back in time to play his hand, meaning before the last card was dealt.

Ah, every exposed card I've seen, it was declared and returned to the top of the stub after the dealing was done. So it would be difficult to be there and miss the card unless the player was otherwise distracted.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Anyone. Anyone can be distracted for any number of reasons and miss what the exposed card was. If I was playing in a home game and for whatever reason I missed what the exposed card was and the players refused to tell me, I cash out and leave. Clearly not the kind of people I want to play with.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Ah, every exposed card I've seen, it was declared and returned to the top of the stub after the dealing was done. So it would be difficult to be there and miss the card unless the player was otherwise distracted.

Many times in games I have played in the dealer takes the exposed card and places it on the stub face up so everyone can see it, turning it over just before the flop is made.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Anyone. Anyone can be distracted for any number of reasons and miss what the exposed card was. If I was playing in a home game and for whatever reason I missed what the exposed card was and the players refused to tell me, I cash out and leave. Clearly not the kind of people I want to play with.

If you were playing in a home game and asked what the exposed card was, and nobody told you - chances are good that they wanted you to leave.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If this sort of thing happens in my home game, we leave the exposed card face up the entire hand.

This solution is unorthodox, but I like it.

An exposed card in Hold'em is similar to board cards in Stud, except that cards are not normally exposed in Hold'em. As the procedure stands now, the exposed card goes away, so it should be every player's responsibility to remember it. It's just too messy to have a rule otherwise, as I feel I've expressed adequately in other posts.

However, taking that responsibility away from the player and keeping the card face-up somewhere for the whole hand is a good fix. My only reservation would be potential confusion with board cards, but I trust that people can catch on to these things quickly.

 

[JustinInMN]

They dont deal cards unless in seat at every casino i have been to.

In a tournament his hand is dead when the last hole card is dealt, there is no "wait until it's his turn to fold". In a cash game, if he's not at his seat, he does not get cards.

This isn't true. Everywhere I have played you can ask for a "courtesy hand" if you intend to be right back. If unattended it gets killed. It's important if being dealt in is a requirement to collect a jackpot share.

Next question -
For you guys that say NO. Do you get upset with the dealer if he answers the question?

Of course not.

I'm okay with the dealer telling the player in a case where the presentation of the exposed card just happened and he missed it by seconds, but I do feel there needs to be a cutoff. The close of the affected round seems like the best place for it to be.

I agree with this and the burning of the exposed card seems to be a natural cutoff for this purpose.

The responses on this seem unnecessarily harsh to me, especially given the scenario and especially in a home game.

Yes.

If this sort of thing happens in my home game, we leave the exposed card face up the entire hand. Not a big deal IMO.

I would be cautious about this inviting confusion. Hate for someone to take a big action and misunderstand which card is exposed and which is on the board.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I would be cautious about this inviting confusion. Hate for someone to take a big action and misunderstand which card is exposed and which is on the board.

Yeah, I'd want to see this very clearly indicated with a lammer on top of the card(s) or something.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This isn't true. Everywhere I have played you can ask for a "courtesy hand" if you intend to be right back. If unattended it gets killed. It's important of being dealt in is a requirement to collect a jackpot share.

I've never seen this, but accept the premise. I assume your blinds are also taken if you are absent during your courtesy hand.

If you don't return after a single hand, how many consecutive hands do they deal you before they start dealing you out?

 

[DoubleEagle]

If you were playing in a home game and asked what the exposed card was, and nobody told you - chances are good that they wanted you to leave.

And we are all happy then. Good riddance.

 

[Kyle]

Home game: I would tell him but many games I attend dont have those tryhard players that wear headphones, sunglasses etc. I would bust his balls about it though no doubt.

At my home game all that tryhard gear bullshit is banned. Grab a beer, hot dog, bust everybodys balls, and play some cards. Leave the hoodie, headphones, sunglasses at home or go to Blackhawk.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah, I'd want to see this very clearly indicated with a lammer on top of the card(s) or something.

That would help, but in home games it's difficult to expect other players to just deal left to right. A lot of people get "creative."

I think after reading this thread, I am pretty content with the conclusion that answering the question in the initial round is fine, and it's reasonable that obligation stops at the conclusion of the preflop action when the card is burned.

 

[JustinInMN]

I've never seen this, but accept the premise. I assume your blinds are also taken if you are absent during your courtesy hand.

Actually this is the exception, you can't ask if you are due for the blind, that player would be on missed blind status. (Though I have seen dealers make exception for this if the player explicitly leaves the money out acknowledging the blind.)

If you don't return after a single hand, how many consecutive hands do they deal you before they start dealing you out?

It's like Spiderman, everybody gets one.

 

[BGinGA]

If this sort of thing happens in my home game, we leave the exposed card face up the entire hand.

We usually leave it face up until it comes into play.

I don't know the official rule off hand, but it seems to me the best procedure is put the flashed card on top of the stub face up, announce it to the table. And then burn it face down at the close of action.

Many times in games I have played in the dealer takes the exposed card and places it on the stub face up so everyone can see it, turning it over just before the flop is made.

That's how we handle it. I voted 'no' for both casino and home games.

In a casino, the dealer is not obligated to tell the player anything about exposed cards (of any kind), and any response could potentially be detrimental if the dealer was unsure or otherwise incompetent. Quite simply, it's not his job.

In home games, our dealing procedures dictate that an exposed card during the deal remains where initially dealt until returned to the top of the deck stub, where it remains exposed until it is used as the burn card (and tucked face-down under the pot edge). If using dedicated dealers, the stub never leaves the dealer's hand, so it is visible for the entire pre-flop action round -- plenty long enough for a momentarily-distracted player to see it, regardless of reason. If a self-dealt game, dealing procedures dictate that if a playing dealer puts down the deck stub for any reason, it is always covered by the dealer button -- so the exposed card still remains visible to all, while the deck is protected from any errant player actions.

But once that exposed card atop the deck stub becomes the first burn card, that information is no longer available to players, unless they are capable of remembering it. The dealer can't speak to exposed card questions, and the one-player-to-a-hand rule covers any type of response from other players.

Simple solution for a simple problem.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I voted no for both. If you're playing at a casino then pay attention. If I'm playing at a home game that's what I'd expect as well.

However in my home game, just like everyone else, I let it show until the flop. After that the table can help remind and bust jimmies balls.

Oh yeah if you show up with hoodies, sunglasses, and or headphones you will be shamed into leaving them in the car or leaving altogether.