BAP Interest Thread - 25/50 PLO Livestream Best Bet Jacksonville

Chippy McChiperson

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I’ve backed people in tournaments before with a markup, but these people had experience and results at that level of play. I wouldn’t pay a markup to one of my better home game players jumping in his first WSOP main event, although I would probably buy a piece of his action with no markup just for kicks.

20 percent is a huge markup for someone with a winning record at given stakes, and to me a completely unreasonable expectation for someone climbing such a high level. Could you win? Possibly, it may be a soft game despite the stakes, or variance may be on your side. But imo if you want to take your shot, asking for no markup seems your best bet to get staked.
 

WedgeRock

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I could just stay in Tampa and make the same or more in the 2/5/10 games without having to travel
You asked PCF to put you in the game...we didn't ask you. If you can make more at the 2/5/10 game in Tampa, forget about this game.

IMO, your travel costs are $400-$500 and your travel time is 7 hours round-trip. Add 8 hours of sleep and 6 hours at the table and you have 21 hours of time invested.

Do you expect to be compensated at your typical hourly for all 21 of those hours? Or even the 13 hours of drive/table time? That would be almost $3800...those no gaurantee you make $289/hour for 13 hours if you stayed in Tampa.

All that said, I agree that if you can't get terms from your backers that makes sense, there's no reason to invest all this time; its better spent in a game you have already proven you can beat and sleeping next to your wife.

Then again, I hear Jacksonville has an abundance of Asian triplets that the wife doesn't need to know about.
 
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skylines

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Let's say I could theoretically earn $300/hr in this game. I get 25% of it becuase I put up 5k of 20k. So I'm making $75/hr

I could just stay in Tampa and make the same or more in the 2/5/10 games without having to travel
I think that’s kind of the point of getting backers to shot take At a huge game. You can play up and equalize your risk to your regular game + a little more. If you find that it’s beatable you can take more of yourself or sell at some mark up (maybe with make up), after you have a track record.

This way you can see if the big game is worth the travel/effort without risking your whole roll. Seems like people might be interested in a no mark up/no make up set up to start and you could decide session by session if that doesn’t make sense for you.
 

Anthony Martino

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FWIW since there isn't much in the way documented online about these sort of arrangements, I posted about this concern in a poker facebook group and here are the responses. As far as I can tell, my offer of an 80/20 split with me covering my own expenses seems fair.

I'm still planning to shoot for the November livestream to ensure I can get on the list early and make sure I'd be on the stream rather than the 5th player on the waiting list.

I still intend to put up 5K of my own funds towards the buyin. So anyway, for those who were interested in being a part of it, if 80/20 doesn't work for you, I'm sorry and appreciate that you were willing to consider it previously at least.

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Anthony Martino

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How much is a hotel in Jacksonville? 1 big blind a night?

It would be a Friday night (at least, it is this time around so assuming the same next month) so I would imagine $99-150 for a night depending on where I stay, plus 200 miles there and 200 miles back.

I'm not asking for anyone to cover expenses, I would eat those myself. I'm just asking for an 80/20 split for those who decide they are interested. If that doesn't work, no harm no foul, I understand and take no offense over it. If there's enough interest in it at that exchange and I'm able to guarantee a spot on the livestream so my results are verifiable, I'll make it happen for November.
 

moose

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Another way to look at is your skill is earning you a 0% interest loan. If you went to the bank to borrow $15k they would charge you interest on the loan and you are on the hook for the whole amount.

So because of your skill you are able to get an interest free loan that you don’t have to pay back any of the loan if you lose it.

Personally I wouldn’t pay any markup on a player jumping up in stakes to a new game that he knows none of the players in.


Pretty much this.

If you sell 100% of yourself, all the risk is on the backers with none accrued to you if there is no makeup. You can't lose by taking a shot.

If you want to take a markup then there should be makeup. If there is no makeup then the risk is the backers and the reward should be split with no markup.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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I'm curious how you worded the initial question to your Facebook buddies. Leading question perhaps? Also, these are guys who by their answers presumably get backed frequently, of course they're going to tell you to get as much as you can...
 
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I'm curious how you worded the initial question to your Facebook buddies. Leading question perhaps? Also, these are guys who by their answers presumably get backed frequently, of course they're going to tell you to get as much as you can...

Not sure why you’d question the wisdom of Facebook posters
 

Anthony Martino

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Pretty much this.

If you sell 100% of yourself, all the risk is on the backers with none accrued to you if there is no makeup. You can't lose by taking a shot.

If you want to take a markup then there should be makeup. If there is no makeup then the risk is the backers and the reward should be split with no markup.

A typical cash game backing scenario WITH makeup is for a long-term arrangement where the player is backed 100% and splits 50/50 with the backers.

This is a one-time session thing, so it's difficult to have makeup be a factor because there's no guarantee that this will be a livestream fixture on a regular basis, as this is the first time they're running a 25/50 PLO livestream ever is what I was told.

So if you remove makeup from the equation, then the backers need to receive better than a 50/50 split, which is where the 80/20 figure comes into play (or 70/30, but I felt I was being more fair to those willing to back me by offering a better deal in the first place)

I'm curious how you worded the initial question to your Facebook buddies. Leading question perhaps? Also, these are guys who by their answers presumably get backed frequently, of course they're going to tell you to get as much as you can...

These aren't my "facebook buddies". This is a poker group on Facebook with thousands of members. But here ya go



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Hornet

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I guess I’m just struggling with understanding why you feel a markup is warranted given the step up to a much bigger game than you play against unknown players. If you want to be staked in your 2-5-10 game where you have demonstrated profitability, you can make a great argument for a 20% markup.
 

Anthony Martino

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I guess I’m just struggling with understanding why you feel a markup is warranted given the step up to a much bigger game than you play against unknown players. If you want to be staked in your 2-5-10 game where you have demonstrated profitability, you can make a great argument for a 20% markup.

I think I've made clear my thoughts on the situation, at this juncture I feel I'll just be repeating myself and this will turn out like a politics thread where you have two sides that just will not agree.

I've made up my mind, I feel an 80/20 split is fair. If someone is interested in that arrangement, hmu. If that doesn't work for you I understand.
 

Legend5555

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I've gotten ludicrous (in my favor) one time staking deals. But a lot of that was before people had a much better idea of how it should work. But every case was with a friend or someone I trusted a great deal.

But in general, this kind of negotiation and back and forth are exactly why I generally refuse to deal with staking or loaning in poker. I have never, even when running a raked game, allowed people to play on credit, given anyone a loan, or staked anyone. I won't even allow people to vouch to put up money for someone in my games that they can't pay me right that instant.

Granted, most of my games are small. And if people want to wobble quibble over $100 bucks between themselves as a stake or loan, that's their thing. And it has at times caused less action and games to break early. But the peace of mind I get from knowing that I don't have to deal with any of that is worth it.

This is all specifically when it comes to cash games. Staking for tournaments is a much simpler venture when done with people you trust. My friends like the sweat, and I don't mind reducing my variance.
 

Poker Zombie

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Short and sweet:
If you were to lose, losses would be equally divided amongst all backers (yourself included) on a % basis.

When you win...
  1. Everyone gets their money staked back
  2. Anthony takes 20% of the remainder.
  3. The remaining pile of dough is distributed on a % of stake basis, which means more for Anthony as he is also covering a portion of the stake.
So, do you 1099 all of us (or whatever the form, not a tax guy here), or do you pay all the taxes yourself? Your possible win rate would easily be in the taxable winnings category, but the profits after taxes for investors is becoming real thin.
 

Anthony Martino

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Short and sweet:
If you were to lose, losses would be equally divided amongst all backers (yourself included) on a % basis.

When you win...
  1. Everyone gets their money staked back
  2. Anthony takes 20% of the remainder.
  3. The remaining pile of dough is distributed on a % of stake basis, which means more for Anthony as he is also covering a portion of the stake.
So, do you 1099 all of us (or whatever the form, not a tax guy here), or do you pay all the taxes yourself? Your possible win rate would easily be in the taxable winnings category, but the profits after taxes for investors is becoming real thin.

Backers would be responsible for reporting and paying their own taxes on their share. This isn't like a tournament where winnings are reported by the casino automatically
 

Legend5555

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Backers would be responsible for reporting and paying their own taxes on their share. This isn't like a tournament where winnings are reported by the casino automatically
I know in California, on cash outs greater than $10k there are some forms you have to fill out. I have no clue what the stipulations are in other states.
 

Anthony Martino

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I know in California, on cash outs greater than $10k there are some forms you have to fill out. I have no clue what the stipulations are in other states.

My understanding is that is a FEDERAL requirement and is geared towards catching money laundering and doesn't have anything to do with tax reporting

Assume a whale buys into a game for 300k and cashes out 100k at the cage. They still fill out the form, but it isn't being reported as taxable income, hell, the dude lost 200 grand
 

WedgeRock

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My understanding is that is a FEDERAL requirement and is geared towards catching money laundering and doesn't have anything to do with tax reporting

Assume a whale buys into a game for 300k and cashes out 100k at the cage. They still fill out the form, but it isn't being reported as taxable income, hell, the dude lost 200 grand

You think you can buyin for $5k at a time and cash out for $10k or more and not get audited just because you're not laundering money?

Lol, sir. This is the whole reason for pumpkins...so the players don't have to cash out and can avoid the paperwork.
 

Anthony Martino

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You think you can buyin for $5k at a time and cash out for $10k or more and not get audited just because you're not laundering money?

Lol, sir. This is the whole reason for pumpkins...so the players don't have to cash out and can avoid the paperwork.

At the casino any transaction of 2k in or out they request my players card

I just said that unlike a tournament win, the casino isn't generating a tax form for cash game transactions is my understanding, you are still required to self report
 

WedgeRock

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I'm not sure what your obsession is with thread-crapping me and twisting everything I'm saying
Not sure why I keep responding... Wait a minute, now I remember!

would appreciate feedback.
To be fair, I didn't even address the biased way you presented the situation to the Facebook poker group.

I wish you the best, man. But I'm my experience, things never unfold in the best possible way. And it's the deviations from what is expected that cause the problems.

Because you play for a living, I assume you have a tax guy and report your winnings as income. If so, I'd seek his advice in this arrangement before any staking agreement. I'd also want *at a minimum* a name and address for all my backers, and a paper trail of money coming in and going out. If your backers don't report the income, you want to show the IRS that you didn't keep it, in case they come looking.

perhaps find a new hobby?

Say the word, dude.

Seriously, if you want to tell me to STFU because I'm not planning on backing, that's fine
 

Poker Zombie

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I appreciate the issues that Wedge has brought up on the topic - the money laundering I can do without. Still, not a thread crap if the topic is how fair is a fair amount?

I would see no issue with a 3-tier payback for profits:
  1. All investors are paid back up to their original investment.
  2. ...if there is any remaining, Anthony gets paid $X for his time, effort, and expenses. Say, $300, but negotiable.
  3. ... if there is any left, All investors get paid out evenly the remaining share. Since Anthony will also be a financial investor, he benefits from greater results.
I would not mind also adding extra incentives. Such as, if he exceeds 150% profit for the investors, the next thousand is all his. After that, all is distributed equally once again, unless we want to add a secondary or tertiary incentive.

Also, who was it that disliked the term tertiary? Just used it again, without even thinking.

I don't know poker-backing, but I understand venture capital and paying the CEO, who is also financially invested (I would never provide venture capital if the CEO was not also financially invested). I also understand incentives, and they are pretty standard for performance based results.

Anthony is our CEO here. His company idea is unproven, but what we do know looks promising enough to at least consider.
 
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