BAP Interest Thread - 25/50 PLO Livestream Best Bet Jacksonville

WedgeRock

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if there is any remaining, Anthony gets paid $X for his time, effort, and expenses. Say, $300, but negotiable.
I think @Anthony Martino's out of pockets are going to be $200 ($150 for a hotel + $50 gas) and I would guess 6 hours in the car roundtrip plus six hours at the table.

I'm not a pro, but 12 hours of my skill and time is worth more than $100 after expenses.

For me, fair is somewhere between $300 and 20% off the top. If it doesn't make financial sense for @Anthony Martino, you can expect him to get involved either.
 

Poker Zombie

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I agree with you, but I did specifically say "negotiable". In any negotiation, I start in my favor and work toward an agreement.

That's how negotiations are done.
 

Jonesey07

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Ok. I think I've got a plan for everyone involved. Feel free to roast and flame away.

1st, the total "nut" must include all relative expenses IE fuel, food, hotel, etc. Let's just say $2,500 per buy in and we pool together 3 total buyins plus $500 for food, hotel, and gas to bring the total amount of funds needed to $8,000.

First we establish payouts for a winning session.

1. All backers receive their initial buy in.
2. Anthony Martino takes 15% off the initial profits.
3. The remaining 85% is then split by all investors based on their percentage of contribution.

Payouts for a losing session.
1. Anthony Martino keeps 5% (if any) of any remaining funds.
2. The remaining 95% (if any) is then distributed back to the investors based on their percentage of contribution.
 

Anthony Martino

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Ok. I think I've got a plan for everyone involved. Feel free to roast and flame away.

1st, the total "nut" must include all relative expenses IE fuel, food, hotel, etc. Let's just say $2,500 per buy in and we pool together 3 total buyins plus $500 for food, hotel, and gas to bring the total amount of funds needed to $8,000.

First we establish payouts for a winning session.

1. All backers receive their initial buy in.
2. Anthony Martino takes 15% off the initial profits.
3. The remaining 85% is then split by all investors based on their percentage of contribution.

Payouts for a losing session.
1. Anthony Martino keeps 5% (if any) of any remaining funds.
2. The remaining 95% (if any) is then distributed back to the investors based on their percentage of contribution.

So I'm 100% backed and do an 85/15 split if I win, or a 95/5 split if I lose, plus have $500 off the top for travel and expenses, and I put up $0 of my own?

I think I'm reading this correctly?
 

Poker Zombie

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Ok. I think I've got a plan for everyone involved. Feel free to roast and flame away.

1st, the total "nut" must include all relative expenses IE fuel, food, hotel, etc. Let's just say $2,500 per buy in and we pool together 3 total buyins plus $500 for food, hotel, and gas to bring the total amount of funds needed to $8,000.

First we establish payouts for a winning session.

1. All backers receive their initial buy in.
2. Anthony Martino takes 15% off the initial profits.
3. The remaining 85% is then split by all investors based on their percentage of contribution.

Payouts for a losing session.
1. Anthony Martino keeps 5% (if any) of any remaining funds.
2. The remaining 95% (if any) is then distributed back to the investors based on their percentage of contribution.
giphy.gif


Partially, dont like the idea of losing an extra 5% on a losing session.
Secondly, don't like that Anthony could sell more than 100% via other backers we don't know about, thus turning a profit, even on a losing session.
Mostly though, just wanted to use that gif.
 

Jonesey07

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So I'm 100% backed and do an 85/15 split if I win, or a 95/5 split if I lose, plus have $500 off the top for travel and expenses, and I put up $0 of my own?

I think I'm reading this correctly?

You would be eligible to invest yourself, in fact, I'd imagine you'd have to unless you looked elsewhere for backers.

This was just me spitballing an idea. It may be totally off base or right on the money.
 

Legend5555

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View attachment 548031

Partially, dont like the idea of losing an extra 5% on a losing session.
Secondly, don't like that Anthony could sell more than 100% via other backers we don't know about, thus turning a profit, even on a losing session.
Mostly though, just wanted to use that gif.
It's important to have a strong gif game.

tenor-1.gif
 

Jonesey07

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View attachment 548031

Partially, dont like the idea of losing an extra 5% on a losing session.
Secondly, don't like that Anthony could sell more than 100% via other backers we don't know about, thus turning a profit, even on a losing session.
Mostly though, just wanted to use that gif.

I understand not wanting the 5%, but in essence, Anthony is our "employee" so he would be compensated a little bit for his time and efforts. If we are being honest though, if it's not a winning session, do we really expect anything in return? I'd imagine that Anthony would run up, or run out so to speak.

Secondly, we would have to have all the investors documented and accounted for, otherwise it's total chaos. Someone (not Anthony, no offense) would be responsible for collections and distribution in order to track said items. Sounds like another Poker Zombie spreadsheet would be in order.
 

Lucks7Shadow

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Although it doesnt really matter, I think i disagree with most on this issue. granted, pretty much all my experience is from online staking before black friday.

Similar to investing that money with a broker, they are going to take a % of the profits, with none of their own money invested. They get to do this, because the hope is, they went to school and learned how read the markets. there's a premium for using their service. Obviously not a direct comparison in this situation, but i think, similar.

He is offering 15k for sale, at a 80/20 cut in the backers favor, with no makeup (no make up is the only option that makes sense in this case, unless it was guaranteed to be continuous action, the backers should want no make up). I think the argument could def be made for a higher % backers cut, since it does appear to be a large jump from the players normal/proven games. But I think it is important to note there is no "set" numbers for backers/horses to use. MAX of 70/30 or 50/50 may be more prevalent, but similar to building a custom chip set, each situation dictates it's own terms. Ive seen backers get 10% with makeup from proven sng horses, and ive seen horses give 100% just trying to sell action. it all depends on past results/risk/future action, etc.

As far as covering/not covering his expenses... although it seems like it is minimal, these should likely be covered by the player, especially since as a professional, they will be covered in his tax filings. I've seen people build in expenses, but in a case like this, really doesnt seem necessary, being so minimal.

having it be based off results doesnt seem to make sense to me.. arent we always saying to not be results oriented? Its about setting up an arrangement before the action begins based off results/numbers available that makes sense to both parties. Saying the player has no risk if he loses is also not entirely true or fair, especially in a professional's case, because if he loses, he doesnt get $/food/rent.

I think its def a good idea to watch the first stream and get a better idea for how the 25/50 game will play. I like to sweat games i cant play and will likely buy a bit pending the final details.
 

Anthony Martino

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I understand not wanting the 5%, but in essence, Anthony is our "employee" so he would be compensated a little bit for his time and efforts. If we are being honest though, if it's not a winning session, do we really expect anything in return? I'd imagine that Anthony would run up, or run out so to speak.

Secondly, we would have to have all the investors documented and accounted for, otherwise it's total chaos. Someone (not Anthony, no offense) would be responsible for collections and distribution in order to track said items. Sounds like another Poker Zombie spreadsheet would be in order.


As stated previously, I'm at an 80/20 split for any backers, I pay my own expenses and I put up 5k of my own money towards the buyin

I appreciate what you brought up, but I wouldn't feel it's fair for me to be backed 100%, lose and still take a 5% cut of what is left over

Also, I'm not a "play until you bust" type of guy. While my own personal limit at my stakes is 3k per session, there have been plenty of times where I lose 1k and decide to call it quits. Sometimes because I'm just not feeling it, sometimes because the game conditions and lineup don't warrant me staying (i.e. the only way to win is to cooler someone)

Just because I have that 3k in my pocket doesn't mean I need to gamble it all.

Likewise, this 25/50 game is uncapped. So let's say I started with 2500 and ran it up to 12k. But now the table has a couple of guys sitting on 30-50k each and making the game play a lot bigger with preflop straddles and raises

I'm generally more inclined to protect my profit in those instances, rather than try to fight deep pockets that can 70/30 you until they hit and bust you

And ty to shadow for being a voice of reason :)
 
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WedgeRock

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So I'm 100% backed and do an 85/15 split if I win, or a 95/5 split if I lose, plus have $500 off the top for travel and expenses, and I put up $0 of my own?

I think I'm reading this correctly?

I think he's saying you're 75% backed on the first $10,000 with an extra $500 to you for out-of-pockets. $8000 from three backers plus $2500 from you. At least that's how I read it. Unless you plan to sit in this game with a $7500 bankroll.

Although there is no makeup, it puts the majority of the losses on you. You only get 5% of a balance of less than $10k while while your backers each take ~32% back. The concept is interesting, but it incentives you to lose it all if you are down. I guess if you're 100% backed, the 5% is all gravy, since you have no investment.

Anthony could sell more than 100% via other backers we don't know about, thus turning a profit, even on a losing session.

Which would mean he owes more money than he won on a winning session... If he sold 6 stakes of $2500 with each backer expecting 25% of the winnings, then if he had a winning session, he'd owe 150% of what he won.

I don't think it would be wise to over-sell backing, unless he plans to lose. And even then, he is just wasting his time...

Sorta going off what @Lucks7Shadow suggested, what about some hybrid with the %age dependent on the amount you invest. It would encourage larger investments, and make the bookeeping easier on Anthony. Or, he could accept small $500 backers and get the higher 20% markup.

Totally arbitrary numbers to illustrate the point.

Markup to AM for $8,000 winROI
TOTAL BUYIN$10,000 bankroll$8,000 profit80%
Anthony Martino $2500 (25%)$2,000$760$2,760110%
Backer A (25% markup)$500 (5%)$400($100)$30060%
Backer B (15% markup)$2500 (25%)$2,000($300)$1,70068%
Backer C (10% markup)$4,500 (45%)$3,600($360)$3,24072%

Because it is a winning session, everyone gets their investment back. The fifth column represents the share of the $8000 profit that everyone gets. The overall ROI is 80%, but AM would make more than 110% ROI after his markup, better than what he did at the table. The backers have an ROI between 60% and 72% depending on the level that they invested in.

FWIW, this is the same as if @Anthony Martino charge a 12.7% markup across the board (of course, profit for each player would change because the markup changes from 5%/15%/25% to 12.7%) -- and the number is not perfect due to rounding.

12.7% of $8000 winPortion of remaining $6,984
Anthony Martino$1,01625% = $1,746$2,762
Backer A5% = $350$350
Backer B25% = $1,746$1,746
Backer C45% = $3,143$3,143

You can fiddle with the percentages and the ranges for different markups so overall, you can expect the 20% markup that you seek. But my guess is, you're either going to get people investing in the lower markup ranges such that it throws your numbers off, or you're not going to get anyone at the lowest investment (because of the higher markup, also throwing your expected overall markup off.
 
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SpaceMonkey420

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This thread sucks. When and where is this live stream PLO postle game??? I’ll roll up with 20 racks and spank everyone there with my cell phone. Problem is that part is Florida sucks so I need exact times/dates pls. Ps. I won’t be staking. Good luck with your skills/backers/math.
 

Anthony Martino

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As stated previously, I'm at 80/20. I cover my own expenses, everyone reports and pays their own taxes. If you feel comfortable with that, fantastic. If you don't, that's fine as well. Appreciate the feedback.
 

BarrieJ3

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As stated previously, I'm at 80/20. I cover my own expenses, everyone reports and pays their own taxes. If you feel comfortable with that, fantastic. If you don't, that's fine as well. Appreciate the feedback.
Maybe just edit the OP with this comment copy and pasted 5 times at this point.

It’s all very cool and I’d love to watch live. By the time you play I hope maybe to be able to do the min $500, but if not (much more likely) I’ll get to $500 with some other folks.

Once you know if it’s a possibility of happening, I’d mention it in your ongoing thread for folks there.
 

Anthony Martino

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Maybe just edit the OP with this comment copy and pasted 5 times at this point.

It’s all very cool and I’d love to watch live. By the time you play I hope maybe to be able to do the min $500, but if not (much more likely) I’ll get to $500 with some other folks.

Once you know if it’s a possibility of happening, I’d mention it in your ongoing thread for folks there.

Done, ty!
 

WedgeRock

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As stated previously, I'm at 80/20. I cover my own expenses, everyone reports and pays their own taxes. If you feel comfortable with that, fantastic. If you don't, that's fine as well. Appreciate the feedback.
I won't be staking, but I'd appreciate a link to the livestream (particularly if you're sitting next month), bit even this month, to follow the action.
 

JustinInMN

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As stated previously, I'm at 80/20.

So I think I want to clear up the "four backer" scenario.

For simplicity let's say you and 3 others put in $5K each to raise $20K,
Anthony, Bill, Calvin, Dwight.

(Also, for simplicity, we can set aside expenses for now. Though I agree that should be negotiable.)

You cash out $30K (net $10K)

You get your 20% ($2K right off the top) for being the horse and all backers including yourself divide the 80% proportionally? So it's $4K to Anthony, $2K to Bill, $2K to Calvin, $2K to Dwight plus everyone's initial investment.

So basically the rub is Bill, Calvin, and Dwight are each putting up 25% of the money, but only getting 20% of the profit to represent the time and value of the horse.

I get it looks gaudy that Anthony gets twice as much as the other investors with this arithmetic, but that doesn't mean the other investors are giving up half their profit for the price of the horse, just 20%.

To introduce a more likely scenario, let's say 15 investors in for $1000 each and Anthony is still at $5000. Each investor gets 1/20 * $8000 (or about $400 plus the $1000 they put in) instead of 1/20*$10000 (or about $500 profit) in a no-markup deal.

So assuming I am right about everything above, I do have some feedback (forgive this for being from the sidelines, but I think a few things are missing in the discussion.)

Just to give you my rather limited staking experience, I don't do it too often anymore, and most of it was a long time ago. I have been on both sides of 50/50 staking deals with makeup and 100% investment from the backer. (Kinish's "standard deal" offer to Mike McDermott.) I have also done no-markup deals in short term situations to avoid make-up. (Usually a tournament or a one time shot at a bigger game to keep my risk about the same.) The question is how low does the horse's share go with a no-makeup concession, and for this being in the grand scheme of poker a very short-term deal. Unlike me, Anthony probably deserves more than zero, and also worth considering, he is willing to own a significant piece of himself + willingness to self-fund the travel expense. Ultimately the market will decide if that's worth 20% and obviously some people are in for that, and some are not. Now and days, I only play in games I can fund myself. I will stake a friend short term now and then, mixed success for sure.

Two points in fairness to the skeptics,
First, I don't think enough has been said about a "no makeup deal" being a fairly risky concession from the backers. I get that the one-time nature of this proposition makes this necessary, but that should potentially justify a deviation from what should be the "standard" price.

Also, in fairness to the skeptics, a lot has been said about the "time and skill" of the horse, but for a single session over as little as 6-8 hours, time and skill are actually less valuable to the backers than they would be in a longer term deal with makeup over 100 hours for example.

All that said, in Anthony's favor, I think eating the travel expenses and sharing the losses evenly are decent compensations for doing a no makeup deal.

To make it simple if the deal is 80/20 on profit and equity shared losses, for every $1000 profit a 5% investor stands to gain $40 and for each $1000 lost a 5% investor stands to lose $50. I think that's the simplest way to look at whether or not it's a good deal. If it were a 90/10 split, then a 5% investor gets $45 for each $1000 profit instead of 40. So that's what both sides are probably arguing for, $5 difference per $1000 in profit per 5% share in the stake. It can add up quick if investors are seeing possibility of $10K or $20K of profit, so I am not trying to trivialize it, but I am trying to quantify it accurately.

I won't say anymore because I personally won't get involved for this kind of money (and I don't blame Anthony one bit for wanting to put a $500 minimum on this, otherwise the list would get quite lengthy to raise $15K), I have a chip add-on and potentially a 3d printer to think about. (Oh and wife and kiddos too.) But I thought maybe a cooler look at things both sides should consider and boiling it down to what it means per thousand in each direction would be helpful.
 

Poker Zombie

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This is suddenly becoming a Chiproom sale. Everyone with a long winded post on how it should be done.

If Anthony is set with no expenses and 20% of all profits, then it sounds like that is his offer. $500 is a lot to consider though, so I'm on the fence... but leaning in.
 

Anthony Martino

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Two points in fairness to the skeptics,
First, I don't think enough has been said about a "no makeup deal" being a fairly risky concession from the backers. I get that the one-time nature of this proposition makes this necessary, but that should potentially justify a deviation from what should be the "standard" price.

My understanding of single session cash game staking from what I've found and discussed with others is anywhere from a 90/10 to a 70/30 split with no makeup and sometimes the players expenses are included and sometimes they aren't.

The no makeup is part of the deal in situations like this, which is why the backers get greater than a 50% cut (which is standard in longer term arrangements with makeup a factor)
 

Anthony Martino

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This is suddenly becoming a Chiproom sale. Everyone with a long winded post on how it should be done.

If Anthony is set with no expenses and 20% of all profits, then it sounds like that is his offer. $500 is a lot to consider though, so I'm on the fence... but leaning in.

Tyty!
 

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