Why aren't 3D printed poker chips a thing? (2 Viewers)

[allforcharity]

I think your test parameters and controls are highly flawed.

As is the person who did the test. But at least I tried. Just a simple replication of what @Poker Zombie posted.

Like you, I prefer real world testing, during play. And I have yet to hear a complaint (except about the colours) from anyone who has used them.

 

[BGinGA]

I've never attempted to flatten chips.

At what temperature do they become pliable? I'm wondering if temperatures during transportation may have any impact. BCC was located in Vegas so I imagine there were many times when outbound shipment of chips sat and baked in the back of a postal truck for hours on end.

Temperatures as low as 100 degrees can cause softening. Clay chips sitting in a hot automobile can easily become softened enough to cause warpage..

120-140 degrees is typically recommended for flattening.

 

[Ben8257]

Also, hotstamps can have a small spot or two that are high so the chip seems warped but the issue is really a high section of the hotstamp.

I have also witnessed this as well, but I am a son of a 45 year aerospace machinists. I may be a bit more picky than most... honestly I use the light test. If a barrel has a bit of wobble on a flat wooden table, they are worth checking

Hold them up to a bright light move the barrel up and down. If you see light between... well they aren't flat.

 

[upNdown]

Okay, here's a video of my slide tests comparing various Paulsons to Bud Jones

https://www.facebook.com/berny.leung/posts/10158544536546667

Here's a table of the results with the chip particulars: (lower numbers indicate earlier to slide, larger numbers indicate later to slide)
Results from 1-6 indicate earlier to later propensity to slide. When it was too close to call, the rankings were averaged out.

Chip Composition	Compression Clay	Compression Clay	Compression Clay	Compression Clay	Plastic	Plastic
Chip ID	CDI98 $1000 (fantasy) THC	Jack Detroit $25 Pri RHC	Red Hot Stamp THC, probably leaded	Apricot No Inlay THC, probably leaded	Big Easy Casino $1 BJ S2, unweighted	Big Easy Casino $5 BJ S2, unweighted
Chip Condition	Excellent Light use Oiled (last year)	Near Mint Handled Unused	Very Good Moderate use	Excellent Light use, milled Oiled (last month)	Excellent Handled	Near Mint Handled
Test #1	6	4	2.5	1	5	2.5
Test #2	1	6	4.5	4.5	3	2
Test #3	3.5	5.5	2	5.5	1	3.5
Test #4	5	5	1	5	2,5	2.5
Test #5	6	1	3.5	5	3.5	2
Test #6	1	5.5	3	5.5	4	2
Total score	22.5	27	16.5	26.5	19	14.5

You are free to make your own conclusions after watching the video.

My conclusion: in this test, the Bud Jones S2 chips have roughly equivalent slipperiness issues to a lightly used unleaded THC chip or a moderately used leaded THC chip. They are somewhat more slippery when compared to a minty unleaded RHC or a lightly used leaded THC chip.

I am interested in reconducting this experiment when I receive the Abbiati plastics and the Sun-Fly 43mm hybrid ceramics when the group buys are fulfilled.

I appreciate the video, but why do I care how long it takes chips to slide off a wooden case?
That doesn’t seem to relate very much to handling issues on a poker table.
I will admit that I’m surprised the bud jones stack didn’t scatter the moment to touched the case, but then you know my biases

 

[BGinGA]

As is the person who did the test. But at least I tried. Just a simple replication of what @Poker Zombie posted.

I have performed similar tests to what you and Zombie posted (results of which are posted on PCF somewhere). But they were much more controlled tests (angle and rate of angle increase was controlled and recorded, and the surface was absolutely uniform and flat. I performed both stack-topple (measuring chip-to-chip friction) and stack-slide tests (measuring chip-to-felt friction), both of which I think Zombie also performed. Test results on chip-to-wood (especially a non-uniform wood surface) on an uneven surface is pretty much useless information imo. Your first two test runs showing CdIC chips as first best and then worst demonstrates the inadequacy of the testing platform, and one that cannot be compensated by multiple test runs.

My testing included ceramics from various manufacturers in different condition, Paulson clay chips of different molds and condition, and new Sun-Fly polyclay chips (the purpose of the test). I need to revisit, adding hybrids and plastics from a few different manufacturers.

 

[allforcharity]

I appreciate the video, but why do I care how long it takes chips to slide off a wooden case?
That doesn’t seem to relate very much to handling issues on a poker table.

You're absolutely right. Which is why I posted the earlier link to a different video that has examples of stacking on felt, including some friction tests on uneven stacks.

 

[upNdown]

I will replicate this experiment later today with some assorted Paulsons vs. Bud Jones and post the results.

I see. Well, if nothing else, the two videos combined suggest that those abiati chips are more slippery than your bud jones chips.

 

[allforcharity]

My testing included ceramics from various manufacturers in different condition, Paulson clay chips of different molds and condition, and new Sun-Fly polyclay chips (the purpose of the test). I need to revisit, adding hybrids and plastics from a few different manufacturers.

Looking forward to those tests and the results. But I find it hard to believe that every single plastic chip from any manufacturer in any condition would always significantly underperform any ceramic or any compression clay.

 

[allforcharity]

I see. Well, if nothing else, the two videos combined suggest that those abiati chips are more slippery than your bud jones chips.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't categorically say so unless I had a chance to compare them side-by-side. I've been surprised before, maybe I'll be surprised again.

And again, we're running the risk of being too general in our pronouncements. I'm only making opinions on the S2 chips. The V7s could be (and probably are) entirely different, as are the R4s. And this is why, as I hope we can all agree, that getting samples, and knowing what those samples represent, matters when doing a comparison. When it comes to spending money on a budget, all chips deserve a fair shake.

 

[BGinGA]

Looking forward to those tests and the results. But I find it hard to believe that every single plastic chip from any manufacturer in any condition would always significantly underperform any ceramic or any compression clay.

Based on my experience, I don't find it hard to believe at all (if excluding consumer-altered chips, like sanded or melted plastics and oiled or warped clays).

We should put a friendly wager on it.

 

[upNdown]

Based on my experience, I don't find it hard to believe at all (if excluding consumer-altered chips, like sanded or melted plastics and oiled or warped clays).

We should put a friendly wager on it.

coughcoughNILECLUBcough

 

[BGinGA]

coughcoughNILECLUBcough

lol, fair enough, but I just assumed we would be using legitimate chips in the test and not low cost plastic or ceramic toys....

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Carry on.

 

[Poker Zombie]

As is the person who did the test. But at least I tried. Just a simple replication of what @Poker Zombie posted.

Like you, I prefer real world testing, during play. And I have yet to hear a complaint (except about the colours) from anyone who has used them.

My original tests (posted somewhere around here) used 2-sided tape to hold the bottom chip in place, thus testing the chips slipperiness vs chips, not vs wood.

You can see in a number of your examples that the BJ chips actually came off the stack before they slipped off the wood. If anything, more slippery than varnished wood is proof that BJ S2s are very slippery!

 

[RudysNYC]

Maybe you've done some time at the Borgata? I suppose if you got used to those chips, that could explain why you see thing differently.

I think this is a point that went underappreciated, @upNdown is spot on. Idk if @GianThaMan does actually frequent Borgata, but I know personally the casinos where I made my gambling bones (Mohegan Sun, Resorts AC, RW Catskills) all use RHC so I thought for a long time that the RHC hate was nothing but slander. Sure the "science" may indicate THC have an extra .3134 gigawatts of surface tactility, but I spent enough time going between casino RHCs and home dice chips to know that RFCs are "pretty f'n great."

Chipping--nurture or nature? lol

 

[GianThaMan]

I think this is a point that went underappreciated, @upNdown is spot on. Idk if @GianThaMan does actually frequent Borgata, but I know personally the casinos where I made my gambling bones (Mohegan Sun, Resorts AC, RW Catskills) all use RHC so I thought for a long time that the RHC hate was nothing but slander. Sure the "science" may indicate THC have an extra .3134 gigawatts of surface tactility, but I spent enough time going between casino RHCs and home dice chips to know that RFCs are "pretty f'n great."

Chipping--nurture or nature? lol

I definitely do not frequent the borgata, I only got into chipping a few months after learning to play poker, and I was strongly against gambling before that, so I’ve never even played at a casino. Only a few home games. I had a set of real clays before I ever got premium plastics, and I didn’t love my first plastics, as they were matsui decal chips which used ABS, which are slippery af, unlike their inner-ring decal chips, which are significantly less slippery, and I’ve grown to love.

 

[Senzrock]

Let's just agree that... ambiance of the cardroom and chip design aside, the chips at the Borgata are probably the nut-worst to shuffle of any casino chip?

 

[GianThaMan]

Let's just agree that... ambiance of the cardroom and chip design aside, the chips at the Borgata are probably the nut-worst to shuffle of any casino chip?

Never felt them myself, but yeah, sure, whatever.

 

[allforcharity]

I'm sure nobody bothered to go to my previous link, so I'm going to re-post it here. It's off the sale thread from earlier this year.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10158084910421667

If these chips are supposed to be as slippery as "they" say, then there is no way that they should be able to stay together in a stack when rolled around and playing with their center of gravity. In fact, I wouldn't be able to take a barrel of them from the tray to even play with them because they should always explode everywhere as soon as I try. Being able to make a stable stack of them 100 high in a few seconds one-handed while holding a video camera with the other should be high-impossible because they should have immediately collapsed as soon as the barrels made contact, right? Because all plastics, by there very nature, play like shit?

Because these are all the hyperbolic statements that I always see posted about plastic chips, no matter who makes them, no matter who buys them, no matter who plays with them. Every time I see the same posts that apply the same prejudices to all chips with only a "I know best, take it from me" attitude. And every time I've tried to interject that there is even the *possibility* that there are exceptions among *certain* plastic chips, 95% of the time I've only gotten disbelief, derision, and trolling in multiple threads.

I have no idea why some people are trying to put words in my mouth, or attribute their strange interpretations of my opinions to me. I know that plastic chips are different than compression clay chips in terms of their characteristics. I have never said that plastics are perfect (whatever that is supposed to mean), or that they have any superior characteristics. I have only put forth the notion that high-end plastic chips should be *considered* as an option to collect and play with, because *sometimes* you may find something that is suitable for your needs, your likes, and your budget. I have no idea why this idea is so offensive that I should be subject to ridicule and trolling.

I have included samples of these plastic chips with all types of compression clay chips in my free sample packs, which is open for receipt by all members (not just newbies), so they can evaluate them for themselves and make their own decisions and judgments.

 

[superchromix]

Given that lack of stack stability and overt slickness due to insufficent surface tension seriously affects the usage of a poker chip during play, it's a pretty major flaw..... and one that negatively decides the fate of plastic chips for many users.

Most people simply don't like chips that are harder than necessary to handle and count, do not stack solidly and are prone to easily falling over when barely touched or surroundings bumped, or act like exploding barrel projectiles when picked up in bulk.

Other undesireable issues that affect some plastic chips include suction effect (where chips stick together), and excessive weight when metal slugs are used (common even in many high-end plastics, in an attempt to counteract the inherent slickness).

How does surface tension come into this? Are you sure you don’t mean surface roughness?

 

[RudysNYC]

How does surface tension come into this? Are you sure you don’t mean surface roughness?

The more surface there is, the less it can slide on its own. Sure, a chip with a wider recess and less surface can compensate by adding roughness, but at that point it's going to feel and look a bit strange, no? Then it would be weird to shuffle at the very least.

I've never felt a chip that was rough in the tactile sense, and have no interest in doing so lol

 

[upNdown]

I'm sure nobody bothered to go to my previous link, so I'm going to re-post it here. It's off the sale thread from earlier this year.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10158084910421667

If these chips are supposed to be as slippery as "they" say, then there is no way that they should be able to stay together in a stack when rolled around and playing with their center of gravity. In fact, I wouldn't be able to take a barrel of them from the tray to even play with them because they should always explode everywhere as soon as I try. Being able to make a stable stack of them 100 high in a few seconds one-handed while holding a video camera with the other should be high-impossible because they should have immediately collapsed as soon as the barrels made contact, right? Because all plastics, by there very nature, play like shit?

Because these are all the hyperbolic statements that I always see posted about plastic chips, no matter who makes them, no matter who buys them, no matter who plays with them. Every time I see the same posts that apply the same prejudices to all chips with only a "I know best, take it from me" attitude. And every time I've tried to interject that there is even the *possibility* that there are exceptions among *certain* plastic chips, 95% of the time I've only gotten disbelief, derision, and trolling in multiple threads.

I have no idea why some people are trying to put words in my mouth, or attribute their strange interpretations of my opinions to me. I know that plastic chips are different than compression clay chips in terms of their characteristics. I have never said that plastics are perfect (whatever that is supposed to mean), or that they have any superior characteristics. I have only put forth the notion that high-end plastic chips should be *considered* as an option to collect and play with, because *sometimes* you may find something that is suitable for your needs, your likes, and your budget. I have no idea why this idea is so offensive that I should be subject to ridicule and trolling.

I have included samples of these plastic chips with all types of compression clay chips in my free sample packs, which is open for receipt by all members (not just newbies), so they can evaluate them for themselves and make their own decisions and judgments.

I watched it last night. I didn’t comment because I didn’t have anything nice to say.

 

[GianThaMan]

The more surface there is, the less it can slide on its own. Sure, a chip with a wider recess and less surface can compensate by adding roughness, but at that point it's going to feel and look a bit strange, no? Then it would be weird to shuffle at the very least.

I've never felt a chip that was rough in the tactile sense, and have no interest in doing so lol

Yes, but surface tension is: “the tension of the surface film of a liquid caused by the attraction of the particles in the surface layer by the bulk of the liquid, which tends to minimize surface area.” It’s about water, nothing related to how the chips are stable. Also, lots of clay chips are rough, take THCs, they’re rough, it’s often referred to as texture, not “roughness” but nonetheless, they are rough.

 

[BGinGA]

How does surface tension come into this? Are you sure you don’t mean surface roughness?

Apologies, should have read surface friction, or more accurately, static friction. It was an erroneous memory callback to terminology used in a previous worklife. Entry now corrected.

 

[RudysNYC]

Yes, but surface tension is: “the tension of the surface film of a liquid caused by the attraction of the particles in the surface layer by the bulk of the liquid, which tends to minimize surface area.” It’s about water, nothing related to how the chips are stable. Also, lots of clay chips are rough, take THCs, they’re rough, it’s often referred to as texture, not “roughness” but nonetheless, they are rough.

You know what we're talking about don't be @BGinGA now lol

And I'd argue the linen finish isn't roughness, just a finish

 

[RudysNYC]

Sure, it's not smooth, but when @superchromix said rough I felt he meant artificially rough, like sanded or something

 

[superchromix]

The more surface there is, the less it can slide on its own. Sure, a chip with a wider recess and less surface can compensate by adding roughness, but at that point it's going to feel and look a bit strange, no? Then it would be weird to shuffle at the very least.

I've never felt a chip that was rough in the tactile sense, and have no interest in doing so lol

As Gian says, surface tension is a property of a flowing liquid, which tends to minimize the surface area of the liquid.

What @BGinGA was likely referring to is the surface energy of the material, measured in energy per unit area, which tends to hold two surfaces together.

 

[RudysNYC]

As Gian says, surface tension is a property of a flowing liquid, which tends to minimize the surface area of the liquid.

What @BGinGA was likely referring to is the surface energy of the material, measured in energy per unit area, which tends to hold two surfaces together.

Sorry man I'm a little rusty on my generalized Helmholtz energy equations

 

[superchromix]

Sure, it's not smooth, but when @superchromix said rough I felt he meant artificially rough, like sanded or something

At a microscopic scale, the surface roughness would also come into play, affecting macroscopic characteristics such as static and kinetic coefficients of friction between two chips.

 

[GianThaMan]

At a microscopic scale, the surface roughness would also come into play, affecting macroscopic characteristics such as static and kinetic coefficients of friction between two chips.

Ok, stop with the big words now.