What's missing here? (3 Viewers)

You're saying there are a myriad of possibilities, from plausible to insane... but the only one you believe happened is that it was stolen. So much so, that its almost like you're stating that its a fact that it was stolen. You might be right, but it seems like a big assumption on your part, IMO. Maybe a fair assumption based on what has been stated, but there is so much that happened that isn't ITT.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter WHY the OP didn't get his Mosin back...it just sucks that he didn't.
 
You're saying there are a myriad of possibilities, from plausible to insane... but the only one you believe happened is that it was stolen. So much so, that its almost like you're stating that its a fact that it was stolen. You might be right, but it seems like a big assumption on your part, IMO. Maybe a fair assumption based on what has been stated, but there is so much that happened that isn't ITT.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter WHY the OP didn't get his Mosin back...it just sucks that he didn't.

You're approaching this from a defense lawyer point of view though. Is it plausible that something else *could* have happened to the rifle? Sure.

I'm approaching it from the probabilistic point of view. What is the most likely scenario here? Without question, and it's really not even close, the most likely scenario here is that the gun was simply stolen. Occam’s razor. All other possibilities, though plausible, are far fetched.

You're just playing devil's advocate here. But he honest. What do you think is the most likely scenario here? If you say anything other than "the cop most likely stole the gun", then you're just playing games.
 
I've never said something else was more plausible. I even acknowledged that your assumption was fair given what was known.

I'm not arguing what happened, but the way you present is, here's a number of things that could have happened, but the chances of all of them but this one is so remote that being stolen by the cops is what happened (even tho I'm not a cop and I've never worked in an evidence room).

Based on the limited amount of information you have, that can be a dangerous assumption, and candidly, it's the part that rubs people the wrong way.

If by "approaching it from a defense lawyer point of view," you mean requiring at least a scintilla of evidence before searching a cop's gun safe, I guess I am.
 
You're approaching this from a defense lawyer point of view though. Is it plausible that something else *could* have happened to the rifle? Sure.

I'm approaching it from the probabilistic point of view. What is the most likely scenario here? Without question, and it's really not even close, the most likely scenario here is that the gun was simply stolen. Occam’s razor. All other possibilities, though plausible, are far fetched.

You're just playing devil's advocate here. But he honest. What do you think is the most likely scenario here? If you say anything other than "the cop most likely stole the gun", then you're just playing games.

Travis, is this for real? Where would one find a paint can that can hold a brush that’s that broad? You so badly want to find wrongdoing in this that you absolutely cannot let yourself believe it could be any other possibility.

You’re taking the OP’s story as 100% fact, because it only helps your anti-cop narrative that you’ve preached since I got back into “the community.” I wonder if you would apply your standards for “getting into the police officer’s gun cabinet” to the police trying to get into a suspect’s?? I already know the true answer to that.
 
You so badly want to find wrongdoing in this that you absolutely cannot let yourself believe it could be any other possibility.

It has nothing to do with a desire to "find" wrong doing. The "wrong doing" has already been done. His gun was confiscated and it wasn't returned. When he inquired about it, he was told that it wasn't turned in. I'm simply using logic to determine the most likely explanation. The fact that you can even utter this thought though exposes what it is that I'm pointlessly trying to draw your attention to. Which is that YOU are the one who so badly wants to ignore all the evidence that's right in front of you in order to exonerate a fellow officer (assuming you are a cop, as there's almost no other explanation for you to be acting the way you have in this thread. Feel free to ignore that assumption, as I don't really care if you're a cop or not, but if you are, it should at least give you pause and make you scratch your head and wonder if maybe, just maybe your extreme bias is showing).

You’re taking the OP’s story as 100% fact, because it only helps your anti-cop narrative that you’ve preached since I got back into “the community.”

I'm taking his story and the testimony of the other witness who was there as fact because we have no reason to assume they're just making this story up. However, I did state multiple times above that it is entirely possible that he's just lying. If this is your belief, then just go ahead and state it. But that's a different claim entirely, and one you won't find much support for.

I wonder if you would apply your standards for “getting into the police officer’s gun cabinet” to the police trying to get into a suspect’s?? I already know the true answer to that.

I don't think we should be invading an officer's privacy and getting warrants to open their gun safe just because some evidence went missing from a case they were involved in. However, I would document the incident, and if a pattern emerged to where evidence continues to go missing in future cases, then at some point it becomes time to look. But again, this is a different topic than my claim, which is that the gun is "most likely" in the possession of one of the officers involved.

If you want to tell me that the level of incompetence inside an evidence room is so great that items like this regularly get assigned to the wrong case or otherwise just go "missing", then that would be an extraordinary claim that would completely upend our entire legal system and would draw nearly every guilty verdict based on evidence into question. I'd like to think law enforcement is more competent than that.

There are only a few possibilities here even worth entertaining. Anything else would probably fall under ridiculous or 'plausible but extremely unlikely'.

1) One of the cops, either an officer involved in the raid or one back at the station, stole the gun/s.
2) The cops are so incompetent that they somehow lost 2 guns somewhere between brains' house and the evidence room or assigned them to the wrong case.
3) Brains613 and his buddy are just making this claim up out of whole cloth.
 
I've never said something else was more plausible. I even acknowledged that your assumption was fair given what was known.
Great, so we agree then.

I'm not arguing what happened, but the way you present is, here's a number of things that could have happened, but the chances of all of them but this one is so remote that being stolen by the cops is what happened (even tho I'm not a cop and I've never worked in an evidence room).
I disagree. Go read what I wrote again. I've never once said "this is what happened". I've used a qualifier along the lines of "this is what *most likely* happened" in every single post. A claim you seem to be in agreement with. If you've come away with a different reading from my posts, I don't think it's one that is justified through my phrasing (if I'm wrong, it certainly wasn't intended).

If by "approaching it from a defense lawyer point of view," you mean requiring at least a scintilla of evidence before searching a cop's gun safe, I guess I am.
Surely, evidence from a crime scene having gone missing meets the definition of a "scintilla of evidence" that theft may have occurred. But I agree with you if you're just making the point that this alone isn't sufficient evidence for actually getting a warrant to search an officer's residence/gun safe. I'm simply saying that *if* we were to look, we'd probably find the missing Mosin rifle.
 
I've used a qualifier along the lines of "this is what *most likely* happened" in every single post.

The qualifier for you, Travis, is that you should just come out and say you hate cops, and you are looking for ANY POSSIBLE thing to help fit your narrative. Anyone that’s ever watched you post your “knowledge” of police matters over the years already knows this, but maybe you should let newer people know from the jump.

Is there a possibility an officer stole it? Sure!! But why can’t you even begin to think of the alternatives? Do you think it’s possible one of the random people that was at the house could have taken it??? Or is that totally out of the realm of possibility because that wouldn’t fit your narrative? Is it possible that the officer that “admired” the gun in front of 20 different people decided he was going to be so stupid as to steal it after he was witnessed with it by those same 20 people? Sure!!! Is that same buffoon of an officer going to risk his career and the risk of going to jail going to steal a couple hundred dollar rifle that countless people saw him with?? Sure!!! Or maybe, just maybe, it isn’t quite as sinister as you do hoped it to be...
 
Hey guys, this super shitty thing happened to me. It's really turned my life upside down a bit. I and other chippers have been affected emotionally, financially, legally, occupationally, time wise, family life- it's really had a strong impact on myself and others that used to be active members here. As in, I'm sure we'll recover fine in the long run, but it's going to be a long road to get there. I won't share all the details, but I'll share a bit.

Just wanted to detail some of this for you since it's poker related, see if there's any advice, and advise/hope you don't run into something similar.


PCFers Everywhere: Well, looks like we need to run this whole scenario through PCF court.

12angrymen.gif
 
The qualifier for you, Travis, is that you should just come out and say you hate cops, and you are looking for ANY POSSIBLE thing to help fit your narrative. Anyone that’s ever watched you post your “knowledge” of police matters over the years already knows this, but maybe you should let newer people know from the jump.

I'll admit that I've been extremely critical of cops in the past. Certainly more critical than what should have been warranted, perhaps even far more critical than I should have been. I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of police officers would never even think about stealing from someone during a raid like this. But it happens. I would even go so far as to admit that if you were to line up 10 random people, each from a different profession and told me that one of them is a thief, that I'd put the cop toward the bottom of that list as being the likely culprit. I think cops are generally honorable in this regard. I do think there are some other serious systemic issues with police, but that's a different discussion and one that belongs in the politics section, not here.

As far as my "knowledge" of police matters, I have next to no knowledge whatsoever about pretty much anything police-related other than my own personal experiences, those of my friends & family, and the countless videos (both good and bad) that get posted online and passed around on social media. If I were to sit in the passenger seat of a patrol car for just one week in a high crime neighborhood, perhaps my viewpoints would change. Or perhaps if I could listen in as a fly on the wall while a group of off-duty officers was sitting around drinking beers, playing cards, and speaking freely with each other that it just might solidify my biases even further, particularly in the south. I really don't know. I do have two family members who are or were police officers though (one is retired). And while yes, I know it's just an anecdotal account, but I've never heard the n-word come out of someone's mouth so easily as it does from my police officer uncle. If he weren't retired already, I would have recorded our conversations and sent them to the ACLU a long time ago. He's a piece of shit, in every way possible. I realize that doesn't mean other cops are just like him, but it has had an effect on me and my experiences with cops in general. That said, I also play poker with a few cops. Several have played in my home game. All of my interactions with them have been nothing but positive and I have every reason to believe they're good people.

Is there a possibility an officer stole it? Sure!! But why can’t you even begin to think of the alternatives?

I have thought of the alternatives. I've pointed them out above, several times.

Do you think it’s possible one of the random people that was at the house could have taken it??? Or is that totally out of the realm of possibility because that wouldn’t fit your narrative?

No, of course not. This would be a near-zero likelihood that belongs in the "ridiculous" assertion category. These people had guns aimed at them. Half of them probably had shit stains in their underwear. None of them are going to risk their lives trying to steal a gun during a raid (especially one that is 3 feet long and being admired by the cops). The fact that you can even come up with something like this and propose it as a realistic possibility highlights just how out of touch you are with reality. This is almost as ludicrous as my pothole theorem joke.

Is it possible that the officer that “admired” the gun in front of 20 different people decided he was going to be so stupid as to steal it after he was witnessed with it by those same 20 people? Sure!!! Is that same buffoon of an officer going to risk his career and the risk of going to jail going to steal a couple hundred dollar rifle that countless people saw him with?? Sure!!! Or maybe, just maybe, it isn’t quite as sinister as you do hoped it to be...

None of these risks that you mention are realistic though. It's not like any of these 20 people at the game are going to be there while he's unloading the evidence, and from the officer's perspective, it's unlikely that brains613 would be getting back any of the items anyhow. For him to steal the gun would be extremely easy. Almost no risk whatsoever. Just simply "forget" to grab it from the back of his patrol car while turning in everything else from the raid. The only way he could get "caught" is if one of the other officers were to ask him, "hey, didn't we grab a Mosin rifle too? I don't see it." All he'd have to do is say, "Ya, I was just about to grab that", or "let me double-check the trunk of my car" or whatever. It would be so easy for him to steal it and get away with it. It's not like the other officers are taking inventory of what was in each officer's trunk before they turn everything in. And it's not like they have their cars inspected before they drive off the lot.

Or maybe, just maybe, it isn’t quite as sinister as you do hoped it to be...

I'm not "hoping" for anything. I'm simply being an objective observer. You should try it. The odds are overwhelming here that the gun was stolen by the cops. If you can't see that, then it's because of your bias.
 
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I'll admit that I've been extremely critical of cops in the past. Certainly more critical than what should have been warranted, perhaps even far more critical than I should have been. I'm confident that the overwhelming majority of police officers would never even think about stealing from someone during a raid like this. But it happens. I would even go so far as to admit that if you were to line up 10 random people, each from a different profession and told me that one of them is a thief, that I'd put the cop toward the bottom of that list as being the likely culprit. I think cops are generally honorable in this regard. I do think there are some other serious systemic issues with police, but that's a different discussion and one that belongs in the politics section, not here.

You are more generous than I.
 
I think Brains has since dropped off PCF.

It just makes sence. If my game were raided, myself and family treated as if we were dealing narcotics, lost thousands of dollars worth of stuff, some not connected to poker - it would be awfully hard to "hang out" on a poker forum for quite a while.

If I came back and saw a certain someone trying to explain how the cops were right, I'd probably throw a shoe through my monitor... assuming I still had a computer, because that would have been taken as well...
 
I think Brains has since dropped off PCF.

It just makes sence. If my game were raided, myself and family treated as if we were dealing narcotics, lost thousands of dollars worth of stuff, some not connected to poker - it would be awfully hard to "hang out" on a poker forum for quite a while.

If I came back and saw a certain someone trying to explain how the cops were right, I'd probably throw a shoe through my monitor... assuming I still had a computer, because that would have been taken as well...

I mispoke. Zombie is not on my ignore list :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

Carry on
 
Interesting Last Week Tonight with John Oliver this past weekend. Main topic was police raids. Worth a watch imo.
 

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