Player Left Without Counting His Money WWYD? (3 Viewers)

[JLK8]

To keep it simple, a player (first time here) at my home game bought in 3 times for $500 total. He ended up cashing out for $1900. I always keep track of the buy-ins and I am the only person that handles money and chips. I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills. So I ask him to count it again after I give it to him because of how many bills there were. I continue to deal out a hand as all my other players want to continue. About a minute goes by and he says alright thank you, good playing with you guys yada yada and he takes off. About ~30 or so minutes later he calls up one of my players who is still at the table (the guy who referred/vouched for him) and he puts him on speaker saying that he was shorted $500. Obviously, I am instantly confused since I counted the money twice and I had him count it as well. We're all human we can most definitely make mistakes but, now I am caught in a situation where I have 4/5 players still playing on the table with money still in play and thinking where this money went if we counted it three times.

We stop the game and after some deliberation figure it will be easier to figure it all out at the end when the game stops and cashouts happen. Without continuing how it all plays out, what would all you hosts out there do in this situation? Any advice appreciated, thanks.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

The loss is on him. As host I'm responsible for every cash in or cash out and I know that but I do the same, ask them to count it. They lose the right to dispute when they leave. Tough situation, but without further evidence (some kind of recording, or my bank being up the exact quoted amount at the end) they're SOL. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt this time but not a good look for a first time player. Off $40 or 60 when counting $20s sucks but it may happen in a sloppy counting...to short him 25 separate bills is bananas. Check the $100s he bought in with.

Ahhhh did he miss the $100s in his stack of bills, he just counted the edges?

 

[JustinInMN]

To keep it simple, a player (first time here) at my home game bought in 3 times for $500 total. He ended up cashing out for $1900. I always keep track of the buy-ins and I am the only person that handles money and chips. I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills. So I ask him to count it again after I give it to him because of how many bills there were. I continue to deal out a hand as all my other players want to continue. About a minute goes by and he says alright thank you, good playing with you guys yada yada and he takes off. About ~30 or so minutes later he calls up one of my players who is still at the table (the guy who referred/vouched for him) and he puts him on speaker saying that he was shorted $500. Obviously, I am instantly confused since I counted the money twice and I had him count it as well. We're all human we can most definitely make mistakes but, now I am caught in a situation where I have 4/5 players still playing on the table with money still in play and thinking where this money went if we counted it three times.

We stop the game and after some deliberation figure it will be easier to figure it all out at the end when the game stops and cashouts happen. Without continuing how it all plays out, what would all you hosts out there do in this situation? Any advice appreciated, thanks.

You counted it out twice on the table and when he left he assumed it was right. This is super fishy that he would make the claim 30 minutes after leaving.

When I cash a player out, I always lay out the money on the table for all to see (other players should be helping to protect you by observing as well) and once the player picks it up and leaves, he's accepted the count.

If the bank ends up $500 wrong somehow at the end, then I might listen to what the guy says. But if the bank is right, I think the assumption should be you paid everyone right.

The one thing I might do is stop the game have everyone count their stack and compare it to what's in the bank. (Don't worry about retracing buy ins, so long as the sum of chips matches the sum of cash you are fine. If you have $500 extra in the bank somehow after that, you know what happened.)

 

[Ben8257]

Interesting... for me only 4-5 players left I would want to double check and make sure the shortage was BS. I would ask players to do a quick count and check the bank... I'm guessing the bank was good as you counted twice... also I would make sure his buddy saw that the bank was right. If you haven't left the table, I would turn out my pockets and show there is no $500 hiding anywhere!

Seems like a shoddy dude... but as OP says... accidents happen. But there is no way I could continue playing with that on my brain and I would ask the other players to understand... I mean what's a bank check take? 5 minutes with 5 players? I get the $$$ has to be put in order and counted (cutting into playing time) but that has to happen at the end anyways.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Probably stop the game and figure it out tbh. Shouldn’t take you more than 10-15 minutes.

$500 is a good amount of money and I don’t want it on my conscience for the next few hours.

 

[JustinInMN]

Ahhhh did he miss the $100s in his stack of bills, he just counted the edges?

Great point, this is now my guess as to what may have happened.

 

[RowlettTexasChipGuy]

tell him hey I counted it twice, at the end of the night the bank is wrong we can talk and settler later

 

[BPTDirector]

you counted it, he counted it. if your bank is right with the chips left on the table its on him. you gave him every chance to dispute it before he left.

 

[Tonysquander]

Probably would stop down and do a bank/chip count. Annoying, but would not take that long. Then everyone can play with no worries and make fun of the FNG. As a general rule though, once you take the money and leave my sight without counting it, any later alleged shortage is on you unless the bank does end up being wrong at the end.

 

[CantSpellPoker]

Would do the same as others have mentioned. I’d stop the game temporarily, have everyone count their chips, and match it against the total in the bank. Minor inconvenience that everyone should understand and be happy to oblige.

Assuming the bank is correct, tell the guy to check for a hole in his pocket. Once you leave, you leave.

 

[Taghkanic]

Seems very unlikely you miscounted twice.

And once he’s out the door you have no control over him dropping money from his pocket or just lying about it. Unless your box is off exactly $500, I’d say it’s on him. If he didn’t count before leaving, especially.

But yeah, count what’s left and what’s on the table right away for peace of mind.

 

[Jonesey07]

Echoing the sentiment here. Pause for a couple minutes to have players count their stacks vs what's left in the bank. Shouldn't take too long as I'd imagine at those stakes players are pretty good at counting stacks.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Echoing the sentiment here. Pause for a couple minutes to have players count their stacks vs what's left in the bank. Shouldn't take too long as I'd imagine at those stakes players are pretty good at counting stacks.

Laughed out loud at the mention of stakes, totally right. Was picturing my apes stacking nickels to make quarters, then the quarters to make $1s, then the $1s to make $5s. When I asked who started counting that way they all looked at eachother and couldn't answer who was Patient 0 to this sickness, they all said they saw someone else do it that way.

 

[Tonystark137]

Ahhhh did he miss the $100s in his stack of bills, he just counted the edges?

Very high probability given the amount off.

When I cash a player out, I always lay out the money on the table for all to see (other players should be helping to protect you by observing as well) and once the player picks it up and leaves, he's accepted the count.

This is what I do too. They count their chips, I count the money, I count their chips, they count the money. If everything is good and they take the cash, they are cashed out.

 

[Mesnik44]

I host both cash games and tournaments. In the tournaments, I count the prize money, and then have another person count it to confirm my totals.

In a cash game, about 1/2 way through the evening, I stop the game, let everyone take a break while I reconcile all money in the bank vs all chips on the table.

If you leave after receiving money, and complain you are short, that's an issU, not an issME.

 

[JustinInMN]

To keep it simple, a player (first time here) at my home game bought in 3 times for $500 total. He ended up cashing out for $1900. I always keep track of the buy-ins and I am the only person that handles money and chips. I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills.

This is starting to boggle my mind the mechanics of this. You had to issue 75-79 bills to make this cash out. (5*100 and 70*20 or 4*100 and 75*20) Holy cow!

This happens to me to some degree when I host tournaments. Everyone brings $60 or whatever in twenties and I get very few c-notes. So getting a first prize with $400-500 worth of 20s isn't that unusual. But holy cow.

But I appreciate this post. And it should serve as why it's important as a banker to have a robust way of handing money in and out of the bank. When you do that, it's much easier to get the confidence and benefit of the doubt from your players when an issue comes up.

I do my best to imitate bank tellers and casino cashiers. Lay everything out in easily countable piles of five bills (or four bills when dealing with those cursed fifties ), stack those piles by 20 or 25 bills to make easy numbers ($2K in hundreds or $500 in twenties for examples.) Count the first time laying it all out nice. Count the second time by tapping each pile and then I let the player pick it up. At that point the money is his.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The whole point of counting on the spot is to head off this kind of outcome. If he's an adult, he knows this. The fact that he chose to leave without counting is odd. Suspicious, even, in light of him turning up 30 minutes later claiming he's been shorted by a lot of money.

If $500 is the exact amount of his claim, the shortage amount doesn't even make sense as an honest mistake, e.g., if he only counted the edges of bills as if they were all $20s. There's no way to miscount $100s in such a way. If there were 5 $100s, he miscounted them as $100 total, a shortage of $400. If there were 6 $100s, he miscounted them as $120 total, a shortage of $480. If 7 $100s, $560. But maybe he rounded. Hard to say.

Anyway, what I would do is pause the game after the hand and do a bank audit against all the chips in play. If the bank is over by $500, well, there's your answer. If the bank is not over by this much, then the problem lies with the new guy.

Doesn't necessarily mean he's being dishonest; maybe he dropped $500 of his winnings in his car, or his kid stole it after he got home. But if the bank balances out while he's claiming to be short $500, you'd have a hell of a time convincing me to let him back in the game. The guy who vouched for him will be on thin ice too.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Well what happened?

 

[Beakertwang]

If it’s a new guy that I don’t know, I would tell him I counted it twice, and he had the opportunity to verify that it was correct. Then I’d say if the bank is over by $500 at the end of the night, I’d give it to him.

 

[krafticus]

To keep it simple, a player (first time here) at my home game bought in 3 times for $500 total. He ended up cashing out for $1900. I always keep track of the buy-ins and I am the only person that handles money and chips. I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills. So I ask him to count it again after I give it to him because of how many bills there were. I continue to deal out a hand as all my other players want to continue. About a minute goes by and he says alright thank you, good playing with you guys yada yada and he takes off. About ~30 or so minutes later he calls up one of my players who is still at the table (the guy who referred/vouched for him) and he puts him on speaker saying that he was shorted $500. Obviously, I am instantly confused since I counted the money twice and I had him count it as well. We're all human we can most definitely make mistakes but, now I am caught in a situation where I have 4/5 players still playing on the table with money still in play and thinking where this money went if we counted it three times.

We stop the game and after some deliberation figure it will be easier to figure it all out at the end when the game stops and cashouts happen. Without continuing how it all plays out, what would all you hosts out there do in this situation? Any advice appreciated, thanks.

I'd count the bank, and count the chips on the table. If they are square, I'd say that it's on him at this point. If your bank is off, after confirming what is on the table and bank, apologize and arrange to make sure he is square.

 

[Colquhoun]

The fact that he chose to leave without counting is odd. Suspicious, even, in light of him turning up 30 minutes later claiming he's been shorted by a lot of money.

The OP said the guy even counted it.
I’m amazed he even had the balls to call and make that claim after watching the OP count it twice and then count it himself.

If there were 4-5 $100 bills like the OP said, I bet the $100 bills fell in between the seats of his car, or something stupid like that.

 

[ArielVer18]

Do you know the total face value of all your chips? You don't even need to pause the game to verify the bank. (Total chips) - (remaining chips in case) = (chips on the poker table). If the chips on the poker table match the cash, then the bank is correct.

Next time, count cash on the table and lay it out so anyone watching can quickly verify. Next time you go to the bank to withdraw cash from the teller, watch how the bank teller count cash in front of you.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The OP said the guy even counted it.

The OP said that the host counted the money and handed it to the player and asked him to count it, but whether the player actually counted it is unclear.

Based on the discrepancy only being mentioned 30 minutes after the player left, it would seem that he didn't count it before leaving.

 

[louBdub]

If the bank was over by $500 at the end of the night, sure, I’ll admit I fucked up, and you get your $500. But if it ain’t, don’t make your problems my problems.

My method:
I make the player validate the count, they don’t get to say it’s good without voicing said count and I “kill the chips” by placing the barrels on the bills.

Both player and myself verify, it’s done, rack chips, finished.

I also payout center table, and have an overhead camera.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

To keep it simple, a player (first time here) at my home game bought in 3 times for $500 total. He ended up cashing out for $1900. I always keep track of the buy-ins and I am the only person that handles money and chips. I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills. So I ask him to count it again after I give it to him because of how many bills there were. I continue to deal out a hand as all my other players want to continue. About a minute goes by and he says alright thank you, good playing with you guys yada yada and he takes off. About ~30 or so minutes later he calls up one of my players who is still at the table (the guy who referred/vouched for him) and he puts him on speaker saying that he was shorted $500. Obviously, I am instantly confused since I counted the money twice and I had him count it as well. We're all human we can most definitely make mistakes but, now I am caught in a situation where I have 4/5 players still playing on the table with money still in play and thinking where this money went if we counted it three times.

We stop the game and after some deliberation figure it will be easier to figure it all out at the end when the game stops and cashouts happen. Without continuing how it all plays out, what would all you hosts out there do in this situation? Any advice appreciated, thanks.

I think you did fine, but a couple of suggestions.

1. "Train" your peeps that they will need to wait when you are taking care hosting duties. Only the crumudgeons will grumble, but they grumble about everything.

2. When people cash out, I have a player next to them double check their count. I always ask players that are way better than me at counting chips. I also have other players double check my cash out, which I lay out on the table that way everybody sees the count.

In your specific situation, I would simply respond with, "I'll let you know if we're $500 heavy after I cash everybody out." If you're not heavy, oh well. If so, I would pay him. While I agree that he should have counted it, I would know that the extra $500 wasn't mine.

 

[AWenger]

We stop the game and after some deliberation figure it will be easier to figure it all out at the end when the game stops and cashouts happen.

^^This. 100% I've been in a game where something like this happened. One time, the host had the exact amount left over in the bank, so it was clear that the host accidentally shorted the player, and the host made the player whole.

Any reasonable person with someone who brought him to the game is a regular should be willing to wait for the game to be over and chips cashed in and the bank counted. (Assuming the game is ending sometime in the near future, and not some 27+ hour degenerate binge game, or something like that.)

I count out $1900 twice, it ends up being a ton of 20s and only about 4/5 $100 bills.

Reminds me of a 1/3 cash game I used to play in years ago that had a lot of $20 bills, when payouts were still cash and most ATMs gave out $20s. After buy-ins, the host would count up and bundle the $20 bills with rubber bands in separate packs of 25 bills ($500) per pack. Whenever someone cashed out for a big amount, the host would just give out packs of $20s, it was still on the player to count the bills in the packs, but I think only one time was there ever a problem, and that was because there was an extra $20 bill in one pack, (which I returned to the host).

It was easy for both parties to remember... in this case, for 1900 the player might get three packs of $20s ($500 each) + 4 $100 bills .. ok... 1900.

 

[Rakrul]

It's his loss, but I'd ask "But you counted it yourself? How can it be wrong?". Then I would stop the game and count the chips vs the bank while the players wait and also ask the player to count again. It's important for all players to see that the host takes this seriously. You shouldn't whiff it off while the player is working up a anxiety or rage.

 

[JustinInMN]

Do you know the total face value of all your chips? You don't even need to pause the game to verify the bank. (Total chips) - (remaining chips in case) = (chips on the poker table). If the chips on the poker table match the cash, then the bank is correct.

Next time, count cash on the table and lay it out so anyone watching can quickly verify. Next time you go to the bank to withdraw cash from the teller, watch how the bank teller count cash in front of you.

That's true, I always make sure I have $1950 in chips and $50 in small bills in my drawer at the start of the game. So I know cash plus chips should always be $2000.

 

[drdr]

Hmm. All of this is much easier if game is cash only rather than involving electronic transfers.
What was the outcome?

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

The joys of hosting!!

As others have said I would have paused the game & done a quick count Chips in play vs. Bank. 5-10 minutes tops. Totally worth it for peace of mind.

If Bank is +500 then he's right. (After counting it twice I highly doubt that's the case)

If it balances then dude has 3 strikes in 1 night.

STRIKE 1 didn't count his $.
STRIKE 2 called to complain about not counting his $ & most importantly
STRIKE 3 leaving early after being up $1400!!!

I would still apologize that he feels he was shorted, suggest he should always count his $ when being cashed out BEFORE leaving the table and lastly never invite him back without a future discussion or receiving an apology.