Poll: Are Brad & Don colluding? (15 Viewers)

[doublebooyah85]

I play a few times a month at a weekly home game in my area. I’ve known the host for about 7-8 years. There are almost always 9 players, about 6 of whom are very regular, plus a rotating cast of occasionals.

The host is a decent guy, with a good job (i.e. he doesn’t really need poker winnings to get by.) He’s a solid but not exceptional player. Let’s call him Don.

His best friend plays in the game, and is a much better player than the host. Probably the winningest player in the game. He depends more on poker income than most in the game. Let’s call him Brad.

A friend who’s also a reg in the game reached out to me between games and asked: “Ever notice how Brad always sits to Don’s right?”

My friend had been the first to arrive at a recent game. Don (the host) already had his chips in his usual spot in the 5 seat, facing the TV.

When my friend put his knapsack and coat down on the 4 seat, Don said: “Oh, Brad is sitting there.” (Brad had not arrived.) So my friend moved to another seat.

My friend raised the question of whether I thought it was odd or in some way improper that they always sit next to each other. He raised the question if they were colluding somehow, or gaining some kind of advantage by doing so.

What do you think? (I’ll put some thoughts of my own in a follow-up comments.)

All my players have seat preferences. This is no big deal.

Now if Brad has the nuts, does he knee Don? Maybe…but sounds like it’s a friendly game. I’m sure there are other “checks on the river” and friendly things that happens as well.

Need some better evidence than this.

 

[TheOffalo]

Is your friend who pointed it out to you a decent player? Has he lost some big hands to the Don or Brad recently? Is he a rabble-rouser or generally easy-going so him bringing this up automatically has some weight behind it?

 

[doublebooyah85]

This is a 2/5 game BTW which plays pretty big by the end of the night.

So I had not really noticed their habit of sitting next to each other every game until my friend pointed it out, but as soon as I did I realized he was right.

It could be quite innocent: Best friends wanting to sit together. But I can think of some ways that such an arrangement might benefit them.

Some more details:

The two have played cards together for at least two decades, I believe since they were in high school. From their chatter, it’s clear they have spent years discussing hands, opponents, and strategy quite a lot.

They also know each other’s games very well. So more than when you play a random villian, they probably understand what each other’s actions (flat, open, raise, 3bet, etc.) and bet sizes mean from those positions, especially preflop.

Brad is the more aggressive player. By sitting to Don’s right, that means that when he makes a button play, he is pressuring only Don’s small blind, but not his big blind. I’ll have to watch this dynamic more closely in future games, but I believe that Don rarely defends his small blind in that situation.

I can’t recall them battling each other for a big pot more than a very few times.

It is of course a lot easier to let a sidekick peek at your cards if you sit next to each other.

Generally I wouldn't think it was such a big deal. But the way Don booted my friend out of the 4 seat to his right to make way for Brad raises some suspicions.

Wouldn’t cheating be better if they were 4-5 seats away from each other and you can actually collude? Trap people. Get them caught in the middle. Hand signal.

This is a nothing burger. And glad you have somewhere to talk it out. Bc if I’m the host and I sit by my close friend to play cards and cheating is ASSUMED off NOTHING I’d be pissed.

Good cash games and regulars you get to pick your seat. Tournaments you draw.

My players (4-5 of them) always want the same seats. To change it up I sit in different places. Bc I agree if it’s the same position everytime it can get stale on a home game that has run 6+ months.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Agreed.

But my move will probably be to try to replicate my friend’s experience—arrive early, casually pick the 4 seat, then see if Don reacts the same way. If he refuses to seat me there, I can then say, “No fair, that’s my favorite seat, how about we draw for seats” and not have it seem as awkward.

But it’s not your favorite seat. It’s the hosts favorite friend. Lol. Let the dude run his game. He’s gong to be like really? My best dude sits here every-time, what’s up ur arse lol?

 

[Kain8]

But it’s not your favorite seat. It’s the hosts favorite friend. Lol. Let the dude run his game. He’s gong to be like really? My best dude sits here every-time, what’s up ur arse lol?

If @Taghkanic duplicates the results from the first player trying to sit in seat 4 and being told no, that seat is for Brad, then we have a situation potentially. If the refusal to draw seats occurs after seeing this play out in two separate instances, I smell a rat.

Reason for suspicion is that these aren't neophyte players starting a new home game, blissfully ignorant of any etiquette, Robert's Rules of Poker, etc. They have decades of experience in playing so they can't cry foul if a seat draw is requested. If they do protest, you have your answer and I'd leave that game.

 

[timinater]

Yeah, lol to a 2/5 home game that can’t be bothered to draw for seats, AND two best buds sit beside each other every week.

There’s smoke, but is there fire? It definitely warrants keeping tabs on their results and suspicious hands if you think you want to keep playing in this game. Maybe it’s innocent but there’s likely at the minimum some soft play.

 

[doublebooyah85]

This is such a nothing I’m removing myself from this thread bc I’m getting too opinionated lol if I was told my best friend couldn’t sit by me at a 2-5 game bc they r suspicious w not even 1 hand detail, and want to draw seats…i’d say don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

People need to appreciate running a game isn’t easy. Drawing seats every time is fine, if that’s what the host wants. If he wants to sit by his friend, and let people pick seats, also fine.

Sure there is soft play. Happens all the time w friends at a home game.

Booyah for better energy after my rants lol

 

[FDLmold]

I don’t care who you are, if I host, I pick my seat and a seat number. When you show up, you pick a seat number and we rearrange as necessary.

 

[LowerBama1714]

Can’t argue that it’s the hosts game and he can run it however he please.

I host and am constantly doing everything I can to make every aspect seem fair and secure…if someone has any concern whatsoever, then I want them to bring it to me so I can nip it in the bud ASAP.

 

[Eriks]

This is such a nothing I’m removing myself from this thread bc I’m getting too opinionated lol if I was told my best friend couldn’t sit by me at a 2-5 game bc they r suspicious w not even 1 hand detail, and want to draw seats…i’d say don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

People need to appreciate running a game isn’t easy. Drawing seats every time is fine, if that’s what the host wants. If he wants to sit by his friend, and let people pick seats, also fine.

Sure there is soft play. Happens all the time w friends at a home game.

Booyah for better energy after my rants lol

We don’t just draw for seats. There’s also:

- shuffle and cutting by different players.
- burncards
- cut cards
- rules for betting e.g. stringbet

And probably many more. The absence of any of these in a game may also be a nothing burger, but we do it because it protects the game and everybody in it. I don’t see how drawing for seats is a different matter.

And a $2/5 that ”plays big” is enough in my book to merit proper handling.

 

[doublebooyah85]

We don’t just draw for seats. There’s also:

- shuffle and cutting by different players.
- burncards
- cut cards
- rules for betting e.g. stringbet

And probably many more. The absence of any of these in a game may also be a nothing burger, but we do it because it protects the game and everybody in it. I don’t see how drawing for seats is a different matter.

And a $2/5 that ”plays big” is enough in my book to merit proper handling.

Your game, your rules, but the bullet points you provided are pretty standard and not what we are discussing.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I don’t care who you are, if I host, I pick my seat and a seat number. When you show up, you pick a seat number and we rearrange as necessary.

For clarification when you are picking a seat number is it random or are you saying you let your players pick whatever seat they want?

 

[doublebooyah85]

Can’t argue that it’s the hosts game and he can run it however he please.

I host and am constantly doing everything I can to make every aspect seem fair and secure…if someone has any concern whatsoever, then I want them to bring it to me so I can nip it in the bud ASAP.

Where is the thread were you didn’t realize something your entire life. Nip it in the bud? Not butt? I’m an idiot!

 

[raynmanas]

Where is the thread were you didn’t realize something your entire life. Nip it in the bud? Not butt? I’m an idiot!

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/i-was-today-years-old-when-i….78032/

 

[ChipFinderSK]

Where is the thread were you didn’t realize something your entire life. Nip it in the bud? Not butt? I’m an idiot!

I thought it was “butt” for a long time too

 

[slisk250]

Sit to the left of both. Get position…

 

[doublebooyah85]

Sit to the left of both. Get position…

Now we’re talking! Double Booyah @slisk250!

 

[links_slayer]

seems like much ado about nothing. what else have you seen that makes you think they are colluding? surely not just sitting next to each other...

 

[Eriks]

Your game, your rules, but the bullet points you provided are pretty standard and not what we are discussing.

I disagree. I think drawing for seats is just as standard. And if not, it shouldn’t be an issue to start using it in a game if requested.

 

[cpac54]

I disagree. I think drawing for seats is just as standard. And if not, it shouldn’t be an issue to start using it in a game if requested.

I agree too. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I probably wouldn't go back to a home game that didn't draw for seats.

I do it similar to @FDLmold - we all draw seats, but I make sure I sit in one of two seats that provide easiest access to kitchen, cash box, etc. so that I can perform my hosting duties easily. I take those seats and the drawn seat numbers are arranged accordingly.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I disagree. I think drawing for seats is just as standard. And if not, it shouldn’t be an issue to start using it in a game if requested.

Here comes a poll! For something to be standard I would say 75% or more.

 

[JMC9389]

Just ask Don if there’s a reason he prefers to sit next to Bradley every time. Talk to him, say the group noticed and was wondering. Truth goes a long ways but I know it’s frowned upon nowadays.

That's exactly how I'd approach it. Just say "hey, is there a reason you and Brad always sit next to each other?"

 

[Eriks]

I do it similar to @FDLmold - we all draw seats, but I make sure I sit in one of two seats that provide easiest access to kitchen, cash box, etc. so that I can perform my hosting duties easily. I take those seats and the drawn seat numbers are arranged accordingly.

Exactly how I do it

 

[slisk250]

I disagree. I think drawing for seats is just as standard. And if not, it shouldn’t be an issue to start using it in a game if requested.

That’s why we always draw for tourneys. Cash as well for many games, particularly in a meet when things escalate (stakes).

Its a bit outside the OP issue, but one thing that I feel is important in a multitable circus tournament is placing table captains. These are experienced circus players and know the games inside and out. I would select and place one at each table and they get seats in the middle. Everyone else draws and then draw for the button. It makes the games run smooth as many novice players are in these meets. Guys like Forrest, k9dr, pokerplayingpisces are good examples of table captains who know how to handle any situation before the TD is required.

 

[doublebooyah85]

That's exactly how I'd approach it. Just say "hey, is there a reason you and Brad always sit next to each other?"

But we know the answer. They are best friends. Just be man enough to say, hey do you guys cheat? Bc it’s such a BS question to ask based on seating…you can’t ask it.

If you had SOME hand history I would understand. But this is meritless.

 

[doublebooyah85]

That’s why we always draw for tourneys. Cash as well for many games, particularly in a meet when things escalate (stakes).

Its a bit outside the OP issue, but one thing that I feel is important in a multitable circus tournament is placing table captains. These are experienced circus players and know the games inside and out. I would select and place one at each table and they get seats in the middle. Everyone else draws and then draw for the button. It makes the games run smooth as many novice players are in these meets. Guys like Forrest, k9dr, pokerplayingpisces are good examples of table captains who know how to handle any situation before the TD is required.

Tournament cheating I think can be just as easy unfortunately. Host can pocket a few big denom chips or give them to friends.

 

[doublebooyah85]

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cash-game-seating.98158/

I am surprised how many players here prefer drawing for seats or that is common.

I somewhat agree if I’m a player and have the option. Sure draw for seats is probably best. But if the host runs the game and wants to be by his friend I get that too. And it’s very common.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cash-game-seating.98158/

 

[Eriks]

But we know the answer. They are best friends. Just be man enough to say, hey do you guys cheat? Bc it’s such a BS question to ask based on seating…you can’t ask it.

If you had SOME hand history I would understand. But this is meritless.

But that’s not how it works. A poker game has regulations to eliminate (or at least cut down on) the chance/opportunities of/for cheating. They should just be in place so that the issue never arises.

 

[Eriks]

I still agree that there is nothing here yet to really indicate that anything is going on.

I just think that it is completely reasonable to want to eliminate possible suspicion by adding a simple seat draw.

 

[cpac54]

But that’s not how it works. A poker game has regulations to eliminate (or at least cut down on) the chance/opportunities of/for cheating. They should just be in place so that the issue never arises.

That's certainly a central aspect of it. For me, it's also about just simply eliminating players trying to jockey for position vs. others players. Heck, I know that, given the chance, there are players in our group who I would always sit to the left of. I'm sure that even the most semi-astute players would try to take advantage of that opportunity given the chance.

Drawing for hands randomizes all of that and give everyone the same chance of ending up "in" or "out of" position on any given night.