Your take on calling and raising blind? (2 Viewers)

[louBdub]

Every. Single. Thing. You. Say. At. A. Poker. Table. Is. A. Lie.

 

[Sprouty]

Is acting acceptable in a home game? I feel like it's a part of poker but some of the responses here lead me to believe that people think it's scummy. What about check raising? Is that acceptable?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

^This in a nutshell. I agree that this kind of antic at a home game is inappropriate and low class.

Maybe this is where I'm at: I run and play in playful relaxed home games, I just can't imagine furrowing my brow about this type of antic. I'm definitely not one to say things like this but I considered it part of the game, though I would warn noobies it could be a total lie if I heard someone say that. Just seems very sensitive. I would consider Kassouff and Persson or Airball way more out of line just out of being rude and constant badgering. A comment like this would go unheard and unheeded.

But I'm talking total beginner warning; if I invited an experienced player, and he believed someone when they said "I haven't looked at my hand" and risked significant money trusting some mook, I would laugh, and he would apparently storm out and refuse to come back to play with us apes.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

This always surprises me. @TX_Golf_N_Poker it really seems like you're unhappy about an awful lot of things, do you have your house rules listed somewhere?

That's an odd take, and seems to go well outside the subject matter of this post. I stated somewhere that I'm fairly new to playing a lot of poker. I also haven't hosted a lot yet, but I'm starting to more often, and hope to eventually establish a very regular game. So yeah, house rules will definitely be written up and made available to all players. I'm working on them, therefore, when subjects like this come up, I go out of my way to try and nail down a consensus, if possible, from people here. Because it's people here that have influenced me to be as interested in poker as I now am.

Not sure where the unhappy part comes from. How does wanting to understand how others feel, and sometimes disagreeing with what others think make me unhappy? Just the opposite. I actually enjoy a good debate. And they often end with "let's agree to disagree, but I still respect you and your opinion."

What is the difference between saying "I have not looked at my hand" and "my hand is random, I am not going to act on its value, I'll bet erratically"? If I say both, they mean the same thing, why would you believe the former and not the latter? Both are very much lies about our actions and how they affect the hand.

Seems consensus is don't do it with people you know and its scummy, I'm just surprised. I grew up playing in games where someone says something dumb like this, then we all roll our eyes. If it ends up being 83o, we're surprised he was honest. I love all kinds of tells, you gotta know not to trust a statement like this.

I've written so much already. I think the answers to your questions here are already in my previous posts. If not, feel free to restate more specifically.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

That's an odd take, and seems to go well outside the subject matter of this post. I stated somewhere that I'm fairly new to playing a lot of poker. I also haven't hosted a lot yet, but I'm starting to more often, and hope to eventually establish a very regular game. So yeah, house rules will definitely be written up and made available to all players. I'm working on them, therefore, when subjects like this come up, I go out of my way to try and nail down a consensus, if possible, from people here. Because it's people here that have influenced me to be as interested in poker as I now am.

Not sure where the unhappy part comes from. How does wanting to understand how others feel, and sometimes disagreeing with what others think make me unhappy? Just the opposite. I actually enjoy a good debate. And they often end with "let's agree to disagree, but I still respect you and your opinion."

I've written so much already. I think the answers to your questions here are already in my previous posts. If not, feel free to restate more specifically.

It just seems like there's so much momentum, I was curious what else was banned. If a statement like this at a poker table is getting someone labeled a liar and a cheat and a warning/ban, I really was curious what else they could do to be booted, that was the house rules question. I think my difference question separates a straight lie about an action, and a lie about future actions. Both just lies at a poker table and I don't separate the two. What's the difference, in one he has seen his cards but is stating clearly and succinctly that he won't act on that information, a lie, vs lieing about seeing the cards, also a lie?

I'm glad you're getting into hosting, just seems like there's some tough boundaries. I've been the tree that bends not breaks with stuff like this. Good luck!

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I get your take on this. It makes sense. Where I differ is that IMO no one has any right to know whether you looked at your cards either, and I feel like that's where most of our disagreement comes from.

I don't disagree with your take. Just with the implementation. When a player in our games announces he is calling or (usually) raising blind, it is an attempt to generate action. The person who does this the most is our resident maniac. To either get others to go along and also play blind, or to get others to call with marginal hands that they might not call with otherwise. I don't personally play these much different, although I might call slightly weaker than otherwise, especially if it is just that person and me. To me, being able to trust that the other player is doing so honestly is paramount to the action. And he believes that because he does play more gambly than most of us, that he can use this to his advantage later in the hand. I will go along in hopes that I can flop a nutty hand and trap him. It adds a level of fun and excitement to our games, which are friendly and fairly low stakes.

Generally, nothing, unless it's really egregious or repetitive, or a valued regular player gets angry enough about it. That's the insidious part of angle-shooting; it's technically not against the rules, so the house can't do much.

If a player gets really out of line with it, he might be asked to leave for the day or something. Probably varies wildly by cardrooms and floorpeople.

This helps a lot. Thanks. Most of my understanding of angle shooting comes from either posts here on PCF or personal interaction with PCF and other home game players. I knew it was at least frowned upon but didn't know how it was regulated.

 

[Sprouty]

Is the player in question Stevie Wonder?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

It just seems like there's so much momentum, I was curious what else was banned. If a statement like this at a poker table is getting someone labeled a liar and a cheat and a warning/ban, I really was curious what else they could do to be booted, that was the house rules question. I think my difference question separates a straight lie about an action, and a lie about future actions. Both just lies at a poker table and I don't separate the two. What's the difference, in one he has seen his cards but is stating clearly and succinctly that he won't act on that information, a lie, vs lieing about seeing the cards, also a lie?

I'm glad you're getting into hosting, just seems like there's some tough boundaries. I've been the tree that bends not breaks with stuff like this. Good luck!

I'm a tiny fish in a tiny cove within the big, giant ocean of poker. I'm just trying to learn all that I can. See my post above where I describe in more detail my specific experience regarding "I'm calling/raising blind" and how it impacts our local home game. I was just surprised when @Jimulacrum called me on my post stating that I thought it was dirty pool. Then this grew out of that.

 

[KHarp1]

I lean towards home game honesty with things like this...its friendly and there should be some integrity amongst friends. In a casino I'm not trusting anyone at the table, other than the dealer, and I'm treating him with a hefty dose of skepticism.

But, the question really should be why would you ever want to call or raise blindly? The obvious answer is your basically a degenerate gambler. Blindly putting money in, except when it's a forced blind, isn't smart. I'm sure there will be those that want to pop off about how they won this amount by raising blind, or, tell us about how they always seem to hit when they call blind, but, all you did was get lucky. Might as well be putting your money in a slot machine because it's not PLAYING poker. It's just degenerate antics.

I've edited to state that I'm ok with a blind runoff for extra chips, etc.

 

[Sprouty]

I lean towards home game honesty with things like this...its friendly and there should be some integrity amongst friends. In a casino I'm not trusting anyone at the table, other than the dealer, and I'm treating him with a hefty dose of skepticism.

But, the question really should be why would you ever want to call or raise blindly? The obvious answer is your basically a degenerate gambler. Blindly putting money in, except when it's a forced blind, isn't smart. I'm sure there will be those that want to pop off about how they won this amount by raising blind, or, tell us about how they always seem to hit when they call blind, but, all you did was get lucky. Might as well be putting your money in a slot machine because it's not PLAYING poker. It's just degenerate antics.

Or, are the people that play their hands blind playing against others actions and or tells? If they can read you like a book do their cards matter?

 

[upNdown]

But, the question really should be why would you ever want to call or raise blindly?

It’s a fun excercise. See if you can beat a hand just by watching your opponents?
I’ve done it before. Usually it goes raise pre, raise flop, raise turn, get reraised big “okay, now I have to look,” fold, feel dumb.

 

[MatB]

I haven't read any posts in this thread yet.

I call.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I lean towards home game honesty with things like this...its friendly and there should be some integrity amongst friends. In a casino I'm not trusting anyone at the table, other than the dealer, and I'm treating him with a hefty dose of skepticism.

But, the question really should be why would you ever want to call or raise blindly? The obvious answer is your basically a degenerate gambler. Blindly putting money in, except when it's a forced blind, isn't smart. I'm sure there will be those that want to pop off about how they won this amount by raising blind, or, tell us about how they always seem to hit when they call blind, but, all you did was get lucky. Might as well be putting your money in a slot machine because it's not PLAYING poker. It's just degenerate antics.

So you also never straddle? That's a perfectly acceptable poker move where you are putting in money blind, but certainly don't have to.

See my post a few posts above yours, and I explain why we do it. Nobody is gambling with house payments in our games. It just adds a little excitement. The guy who does it thinks he can gain an advantage later, and so do the people who call him.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I haven't read any posts in this thread yet.

I call.

As long as you voted!

And I've heard stories about you. I'm never believing anything you say at a poker table...

 

[Mojo1312]

Maybe this is where I'm at: I run and play in playful relaxed home games, I just can't imagine furrowing my brow about this type of antic. I'm definitely not one to say things like this but I considered it part of the game, though I would warn noobies it could be a total lie if I heard someone say that. Just seems very sensitive. I would consider Kassouff and Persson or Airball way more out of line just out of being rude and constant badgering. A comment like this would go unheard and unheeded.

But I'm talking total beginner warning; if I invited an experienced player, and he believed someone when they said "I haven't looked at my hand" and risked significant money trusting some mook, I would laugh, and he would apparently storm out and refuse to come back to play with us apes.

That's an odd take, and seems to go well outside the subject matter of this post. I stated somewhere that I'm fairly new to playing a lot of poker. I also haven't hosted a lot yet, but I'm starting to more often, and hope to eventually establish a very regular game. So yeah, house rules will definitely be written up and made available to all players. I'm working on them, therefore, when subjects like this come up, I go out of my way to try and nail down a consensus, if possible, from people here. Because it's people here that have influenced me to be as interested in poker as I now am.

Not sure where the unhappy part comes from. How does wanting to understand how others feel, and sometimes disagreeing with what others think make me unhappy? Just the opposite. I actually enjoy a good debate. And they often end with "let's agree to disagree, but I still respect you and your opinion."

I don't see where either one of you are wrong. Expectations from peer groups is built over time. As Jim stated, ethically, this would be frowned upon among the established group I currently play with. There is a certain decorum that we all intuitively abide by. Rocking boats by falsely claiming you are playing blind is considered a gimmick that is beneath us. We play $1/$2 NLHE with a $300 buy-in. Approximately one third of the hands, there is a $5-$7 straddle in effect. Sometimes we will have a double straddle. Most players are in their late 50's to early 70's. Two of the ten regulars are under 50.

At the same time, I played in a $1/$1 NLHE home game with a $40 buy-in in the late odds early 2010's where the onus is on the players to pay attention to the action of others. The players in that group were in their mid thirties. Rarely did anyone straddle in that game.

 

[MatB]

I wouldn't do it, its a bit of a angle.

But... I can see someone saying they didn't look, grinning and then saying,,, well maybe I did..

And it wouldn't bother me.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I don't see where either one of you are wrong. Expectations from peer groups is built over time. As Jim stated, ethically, this would be frowned upon among the established group I currently play with. There is a certain decorum that we all intuitively abide by. Rocking boats by falsely claiming you are playing blind is considered a gimmick that is beneath us. We play $1/$2 NLHE with a $300 buy-in. Approximately one third of the hands, there is a $5-$7 straddle in effect. Sometimes we will have a double straddle. Most players are in their late 50's to early 70's. Two of the ten regulars are under 50.

At the same time, I played in a $1/$1 NLHE home game with a $40 buy-in in the late odds early 2010's where the onus is on the players to pay attention to the action of others. The players in that group were in their mid thirties. Rarely did anyone straddle in that game.

I think this brings up a good point. We do not have a straddle in our games, although I suspect gambly maniac wishes that we did. I would say he most often does this when he is OTG.

 

[doctorchips]

How is playing blind angling? It's just not a smart move under any circumstance I would think.

edit: ah, I can't read apparently. Nah. Lying at the poker table is just part of the game, no?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I said earlier that I had another take on this, sort of an ulterior motive to posting this poll. So here we go.

This question is directed at the 12 people (at this time) who elected to vote straight up yes, that they would lie about having looked at their hand, even though they told the table that they did not look.

One of my interests in this is because I plan on playing in quite a few upcoming PCF meetups. Playing poker in a fun, social, home game type atmosphere, against people I have met here online, but don't really know. I would sorta like to know ahead of time whether the take that @Jimulacrum and others here have is prevalent within PCF, or not. I’ve been to a few meetups, and I know they can get gambly. Much crazier things than playing hands blind have happened. So I can see playing hands blind happening during a meetup, and I'd like to know ahead of time if I'm going to be taken advantage of when it does happen.

So to you 12, why did you pick the unconditional Yes, and not the last option, yes I'd do it in a casino against strangers, but not in a home game against friends. Because I would put a PCF meetup in a similar category as a home game with friends. And based on this small sample size, it looks like it's possible that 30% of the people I sit down with at a PCF meetup, might be willing lie about not looking at their hand when claiming that they didn't. Is that a fair assumption?

 

[KHarp1]

So you also never straddle? That's a perfectly acceptable poker move where you are putting in money blind, but certainly don't have to.

See my post a few posts above yours, and I explain why we do it. Nobody is gambling with house payments in our games. It just adds a little excitement. The guy who does it thinks he can gain an advantage later, and so do the people who call him.

No, I never straddle. If a person THINKS they can gain an advantage by playing blind does they mean that they ACTUALLY do? Sure, I'll occasionally play a hand blind if a person i know asks me to, as in we both put up a set amount, then play blind. Usually towards the end of the night, but, I don't try and con myself into thinking I'm gaining any info about the other player.. other than they just like to gamble.

 

[Sprouty]

This question is directed at the 12 people (at this time) who elected to vote straight up yes, that they would lie about having looked at their hand, even though they told the table that they did not look.

That's not how your poll reads.

I can't wait to play a hand blind with you at Bill's meet up.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I said earlier that I had another take on this, sort of an ulterior motive to posting this poll. So here we go.

This question is directed at the 12 people (at this time) who elected to vote straight up yes, that they would lie about having looked at their hand, even though they told the table that they did not look.

View attachment 1288787

One of my interests in this is because I plan on playing in quite a few upcoming PCF meetups. Playing poker in a fun, social, home game type atmosphere, against people I have met here online, but don't really know. I would sorta like to know ahead of time whether the take that @Jimulacrum and others here have is prevalent within PCF, or not. I’ve been to a few meetups, and I know they can get gambly. Much crazier things than playing hands blind have happened. So I can see playing hands blind happening during a meetup, and I'd like to know ahead of time if I'm going to be taken advantage of when it does happen.

So to you 12, why did you pick the unconditional Yes, and not the last option, yes I'd do it in a casino against strangers, but not in a home game against friends. Because I would put a PCF meetup in a similar category as a home game with friends. And based on this small sample size, it looks like it's possible that 30% of the people I sit down with at a PCF meetup, might be willing lie about not looking at their hand when claiming that they didn't. Is that a fair assumption?

I answered this from the perspective of someone else doing it to me. If someone were to do it to me, am I justified in calling out the behavior as unethical?

I don't think I am.

Doesn't mean I would or wouldn't do it myself. That's not the question I'm answering. I have never done it myself, to clear the air of that. It is a little unseemly and not really my style. I like to win as much as anyone, but in a way that is healthy for the game, not sending people home sore. That stuff matters to me.

However, it doesn't quite rise to the level of angle-shooting for me.

It's more like weak etiquette, comparable to slow-rolling.* Maybe one notch worse than slow-rolling. I don't love it, and I'll make a mental note of anyone I see doing it, but it's technically fair game, if people really want to go there. I just won't trust them as much afterward.

Spoiler: *

in a game where Nutter Butters is not in effect

 

[ChipFinderSK]

 

[Jimulacrum]

Aside: You know what really sucks? When you actually play a hand blind, and you have something ridiculous like QQ that flops a set, and no one believes you didn't look. But it was true!

 

[drdr]

I said earlier that I had another take on this, sort of an ulterior motive to posting this poll. So here we go.

This question is directed at the 12 people (at this time) who elected to vote straight up yes, that they would lie about having looked at their hand, even though they told the table that they did not look.

View attachment 1288787

One of my interests in this is because I plan on playing in quite a few upcoming PCF meetups. Playing poker in a fun, social, home game type atmosphere, against people I have met here online, but don't really know. I would sorta like to know ahead of time whether the take that @Jimulacrum and others here have is prevalent within PCF, or not. I’ve been to a few meetups, and I know they can get gambly. Much crazier things than playing hands blind have happened. So I can see playing hands blind happening during a meetup, and I'd like to know ahead of time if I'm going to be taken advantage of when it does happen.

So to you 12, why did you pick the unconditional Yes, and not the last option, yes I'd do it in a casino against strangers, but not in a home game against friends. Because I would put a PCF meetup in a similar category as a home game with friends. And based on this small sample size, it looks like it's possible that 30% of the people I sit down with at a PCF meetup, might be willing lie about not looking at their hand when claiming that they didn't. Is that a fair assumption?

DUDE!
Isn't the above essentially the same as lying about looking at you hand? Didn't you just angle those 12?
You're a meta badass! Grin.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

That's not how your poll reads.

I can't wait to play a hand blind with you at Bill's meet up.

Well, it's my poll, and I've provided endless explanation as to exactly what I was asking. I even posted the poll in my recent post. And I directed anyone answering the poll to read post #1 for more information. So I'm pretty sure I understand what I was asking. If others didn't then I'm not sure sure how to respond to that.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Well, it's my poll, and I've provided endless explanation as to exactly what I was asking. I even posted the poll in my recent post. And I directed anyone answering the poll to read post #1 for more information. So I'm pretty sure I understand what I was asking. If others didn't then I'm not sure sure how to respond to that.

Yeah, I don't know, man. I like what the other guy said.

I want a refund.

 

[ChipFinderSK]

I’ll play a hand blind sometimes, but never announce it until we’re at showdown. I’ll then say, “wonder what I have “ and slowly peel the cards. It’s like doing a flip!!

I’m going to do this tomorrow at least once

 

[ChipFinderSK]

Is acting acceptable in a home game? I feel like it's a part of poker but some of the responses here lead me to believe that people think it's scummy. What about check raising? Is that acceptable?

 

[KidFromCleveland]

The only thing i think is out of line at a poker table is to talk about a hand you folded…everything else is fair game.