Your take on calling and raising blind? (3 Viewers)

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Bringing this up after a conversation in another thread. I want to know what more people think about announcing that you are in a hand blind, when you have looked at your hole cards.

Here is where it all started:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/quads-in-dramaha.116856/post-2403902

And here's what was ultimately my final take after another member stated it was perfectly okay to announce he was in a hand blind, even though he had looked at his cards:

Well, I guess, thank you for opening my eyes. I'll now be more careful regarding this situation outside of games played with trusted friends. Maybe I'm just too naive, but I definitely put this in the same category with angle shooting, which is effectively what it is. I guess you think other forms of angle shooting are okay too?

I for one, have no interest in playing poker with liars and cheats. If I'm hosting and a player lied about going in blind, they might get one warning, and after that, they would not be invited back to my game. I suspect that someone who would lie about going in blind is probably also capable of palming chips out of a pot, colluding with a friend, marking cards, and who know what other nefarious acts. Again, not someone I would ever want to play with in a poker game.

 

[joeyshin]

I would never say I’m blind if I have looked. You can play poker well without lying

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Some may disagree, but in a friendly home game I consider this to be along the same lines as angle shooting. It's not technically illegal, but it's a bit scummy.

In the casino, whatever. I only believe what people tell me with their actions.

 

[Bacon Dad]

Bringing this up after a conversation in another thread. I want to know what more people think about announcing that you are in a hand blind, when you have looked at your hole cards.

Here is where it all started:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/quads-in-dramaha.116856/post-2403902

And here's what was ultimately my final take after another member stated it was perfectly okay to announce he was in a hand blind, even though he had looked at his cards:

Well, I guess, thank you for opening my eyes. I'll now be more careful regarding this situation outside of games played with trusted friends. Maybe I'm just too naive, but I definitely put this in the same category with angle shooting, which is effectively what it is. I guess you think other forms of angle shooting are okay too?

I for one, have no interest in playing poker with liars and cheats. If I'm hosting and a player lied about going in blind, they might get one warning, and after that, they would not be invited back to my game. I suspect that someone who would lie about going in blind is probably also capable of palming chips out of a pot, colluding with a friend, marking cards, and who know what other nefarious acts. Again, not someone I would ever want to play with in a poker game.

Just curious, where do you stand on this topic if you were at a table in Vegas with complete strangers versus at a home game with friends?

 

[Highli99]

I don't do this personally, but I find it really funny when other people do because 1) it's poker and 2) the whole “I'm blind” thing is literally a trope with memes and videos.

You can't really go wrong by always assuming someone has looked.

 

[CraigT78]

Pretty shitty thing to do in a home game, but why would you fall for it? I'd play the hand like I would any hand, assuming the player is full of shit.

 

[upNdown]

I think it’s worse than an angle.
We’ve been over this before - I’m sure if we search for Tony G and Phil, we’ll find more feedback on the topic.
There’s a difference between bluffing and lying. Anybody who doesn’t understand that, I’m not sure what to say. I guess I’d still play with them, but I’d want to know who they are, And I wouldn’t trust them not to cheat.

 

[dmoney]

Lying and bluffing are not the same.

 

[JMC9389]

Some may disagree, but in a friendly home game I consider this to be along the same lines as angle shooting. It's not technically illegal, but it's a bit scummy.

In the casino, whatever. I only believe what people tell me with their actions.

This. In a game with friends and respected acquaintances, such as a PCF meetup? Very poor form and a good way to not get invited back.

At a casino or card room against strangers? Eff 'em.

 

[Highli99]

For the folks that feel it is wrong, do you feel all speechplay is wrong? If not, where is the line? Seems to me either you can talk or you can't.

People talk all the time “fold, I've got it” That sort of thing. It's all part of the game.

 

[upNdown]

I’ve always been totally against this sort of lying, but reading through that other thread, there’s a point that has me thinking:

If you actually ask the other guy if they have a ten, maybe it is okay for him to lie?

I’m totally against lying about not having seen the cards. And I’m totally against volunteering a lie, like “I don’t have a boat” or “I don’t have the ten.” But when somebody directly asks you a question about your hand, they’re trying to get information out of you that they’re not entitled to. Is it okay for them to lie at that point? Instead of squirming and risking giving up a tell? I’m not sure.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I’ve always been totally against this sort of lying, but reading through that other thread, there’s a point that has me thinking:

If you actually ask the other guy if they have a ten, maybe it is okay for him to lie?

It absolutely is, if the player was put on the spot. Otherwise it gives the needler too much power.

I’m totally against lying about not having seen the cards.

I don't agree, but can understand seeing this as different than lying about the contents of your hand.

And I’m totally against volunteering a lie, like “I don’t have a boat” or “I don’t have the ten.” But when somebody directly asks you a question about your hand, they’re trying to get information out of you that they’re not entitled to. Is it okay for them to lie at that point? Instead of squirming and risking giving up a tell? I’m not sure.

I think volunteering the lie is just as good, as long as it's heads-up. Any speechplay with regard to your hand, prior to showdown, is fair game heads-up as far as I'm concerned.

 

[upNdown]

For the folks that feel it is wrong, do you feel all speechplay is wrong?

I think it’s often pretty cunty. If the opponent wants to engage in the speech play, then great, have at it, have fun, and yeah, I guess lying is okay. If it’s a home game where guys are always giving each other the business, then have at it.

But when you have a guy who wants to speech play every street of every hand with every opponent, that can get real tired, real quick. Especially if the other guy is tanking, trying to replay the hand, work his way through it, trying to make his own decision for himself - yeah, if your opponent isn’t engaging, you should probably shut up. Or you can be Will Kasouf or Eric Persson - your choice.

 

[dmoney]

do you feel all speechplay is wrong?

Definitely not.

I think confirming that a player has not looked at their hand in a blind bet or straddle situation is materially different than probing for info once the hand progresses.

I view one as lying and unwelcome, the other is expected speech play that can be a fun cat-and-mouse element to playing poker.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Despite all I've said about lying about playing blind being fair game, I can understand why players would want to discourage this behavior in a home game. Makes perfect sense, as clearly there are a lot of people who are put off by this.

But it's not angle-shooting: engaging in behavior that's technically legal but intended to subvert the spirit of the rules. Unless it's part of a custom house rule, there's no rule whose spirit could be subverted in this way. It's just chatter, no different than if the player lied about how many drinks he has had or whether he inhaled when he took a walk with the Rasta contingent.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think confirming that a player has not looked at their hand in a blind bet or straddle situation is materially different than probing for info once the hand progresses.

Straddling is different. You can only place a straddle if you haven't looked, so placing one after looking is cheating.

Lying about playing blind changes nothing. All your actions are within the rules. It's more of an etiquette question.

 

[Kensco]

So far I'm the lone "no, but for other reasons" vote. To me it feels one step beyond angling, both are bad but this is a touch worse

 

[Highli99]

I think it’s often pretty cunty. If the opponent wants to engage in the speech play, then great, have at it, have fun, and yeah, I guess lying is okay. If it’s a home game where guys are always giving each other the business, then have at it.

But when you have a guy who wants to speech play every street of every hand with every opponent, that can get real tired, real quick. Especially if the other guy is tanking, trying to replay the hand, work his way through it, trying to make his own decision for himself - yeah, if your opponent isn’t engaging, you should probably shut up. Or you can be Will Kasouf or Eric Persson - your choice.

I personally don't engage in speech play. Not because I think its cunty, but because I think it gives away too much information to good players. People think they are being clever but really they are telling experienced players what they have. Doing this well and balanced and REALLY HARD.

Because so few people do it well, I prefer to take the free money and have a laugh when someone out levels me. Getting tilted by it is sort of playing into their hands, is it not?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Just curious, where do you stand on this topic if you were at a table in Vegas with complete strangers versus at a home game with friends?

I still would not do it myself, but I would also not believe them if I could not verify it. I'd play my hand exactly the same way as I would if they had not announced.

I also have another take on this, but I'm going to wait until there are more votes as I don't want my comment to skew the voting.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I think it’s worse than an angle.
We’ve been over this before - I’m sure if we search for Tony G and Phil, we’ll find more feedback on the topic.
There’s a difference between bluffing and lying. Anybody who doesn’t understand that, I’m not sure what to say. I guess I’d still play with them, but I’d want to know who they are, And I wouldn’t trust them not to cheat.

Lying and bluffing are not the same.

BINGO! Exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

[upNdown]

no different than if the player lied about how many drinks he has had

Except it kind of is different. Whether or not lying is right or wrong (and youve already convinced me that it’s right in some situations,) if two players have such radically different expectations of what is acceptable like Tony and Phil had, (and this poll shows that there are plenty of people who are dug in on both sides of the debate) then right or wrong, it is different.

Doing this well and balanced and REALLY HARD.

Oh I agree with you and that’s probably why I don’t do it either. And I don’t have a problem with people who can do speech play really well. But they gotta be a good table mate too -when it’s constant and one-sided, it can be annoying.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

For the folks that feel it is wrong, do you feel all speechplay is wrong? If not, where is the line? Seems to me either you can talk or you can't.

People talk all the time “fold, I've got it” That sort of thing. It's all part of the game.

Agreed. To me, this is one very specific situation. Lying about your hand, especially when specifically asked - perfectly okay. Telling your opponent to fold, or to call? okay. I'm not sure exactly where the line is, but it's kinda like porn. I know it when I see (or hear) it.

 

[elemeno]

I voted for the third option.

I’m curious to what the community thinks about other forms of lying. For example, if a player says “I have a boat” when he doesn’t. Is that okay?

Also, what about other “soft skills” of the game/outside the game, such as “befriending” fish and whales? After the whole J4 fiasco, it seems that Garrett’s nice guy persona was completely faked after screenshots of him rating spots on a scale of 10 were unveiled.

 

[krafticus]

I’ll play a hand blind sometimes, but never announce it until we’re at showdown. I’ll then say, “wonder what I have “ and slowly peel the cards. It’s like doing a flip!!

 

[Eriks]

Stfu and just make your move in a timely fashion, is what I prefer.

I guess heads-up on the river facing a big bet one could start with the ”did you reallys”. I’m not a fan but fine, I guess. But I’d cash out or kill myself before sitting through a session with Person, Kassouf or what have you.

The outright lying about not having seen one’s hand is no go in my book.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Despite all I've said about lying about playing blind being fair game, I can understand why players would want to discourage this behavior in a home game. Makes perfect sense, as clearly there are a lot of people who are put off by this.

But it's not angle-shooting: engaging in behavior that's technically legal but intended to subvert the spirit of the rules. Unless it's part of a custom house rule, there's no rule whose spirit could be subverted in this way. It's just chatter, no different than if the player lied about how many drinks he has had or whether he inhaled when he took a walk with the Rasta contingent.

Obviously, from our conversation in the other thread, I still disagree that it is not angle shooting. I'll repeat here what I said over there.

I pulled this from an online site. Seems like a reasonable definition: Angle Shooting usually refers to using underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents.

To me, announcing to the table that you are playing blind, when in fact you are not, falls very clearly within the definition of an underhanded tactic to gain an advantage over your opponent. It is very different from being dishonest about the cards you hold when asked by an opponent, who obviously has no right to know what you have prior to showdown.

Therefore, to my eye, any game that prohibits angle shooting, should prohibit this. And I'm going to plead ignorance here, I don't know to what extent other forms of angle shooting are punished. What happens to a player who is caught angle shooting in a casino?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This always surprises me. @TX_Golf_N_Poker it really seems like you're unhappy about an awful lot of things, do you have your house rules listed somewhere?

What is the difference between saying "I have not looked at my hand" and "my hand is random, I am not going to act on its value, I'll bet erratically"? If I say both, they mean the same thing, why would you believe the former and not the latter? Both are very much lies about our actions and how they affect the hand.

Seems consensus is don't do it with people you know and its scummy, I'm just surprised. I grew up playing in games where someone says something dumb like this, then we all roll our eyes. If it ends up being 83o, we're surprised he was honest. I love all kinds of tells, you gotta know not to trust a statement like this.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Obviously, from our conversation in the other thread, I still disagree that it is not angle shooting. I'll repeat here what I said over there.

I pulled this from an online site. Seems like a reasonable definition: Angle Shooting usually refers to using underhanded or unethical tactics in an attempt to gain an edge against opponents.

To me, announcing to the table that you are playing blind, when in fact you are not, falls very clearly within the definition of an underhanded tactic to gain an advantage over your opponent. It is very different from being dishonest about the cards you hold when asked by an opponent, who obviously has no right to know what you have prior to showdown.

I get your take on this. It makes sense. Where I differ is that IMO no one has any right to know whether you looked at your cards either, and I feel like that's where most of our disagreement comes from.

Therefore, to my eye, any game that prohibits angle shooting, should prohibit this. And I'm going to plead ignorance here, I don't know to what extent other forms of angle shooting are punished. What happens to a player who is caught angle shooting in a casino?

Generally, nothing, unless it's really egregious or repetitive, or a valued regular player gets angry enough about it. That's the insidious part of angle-shooting; it's technically not against the rules, so the house can't do much.

If a player gets really out of line with it, he might be asked to leave for the day or something. Probably varies wildly by cardrooms and floorpeople.

 

[upNdown]

What happens to a player who is caught angle shooting in a casino?

Since they haven’t broken any rules, I don’t think there’s usually any penalty.

 

[Mojo1312]

Straddling is different. You can only place a straddle if you haven't looked, so placing one after looking is cheating.

Lying about playing blind changes nothing. All your actions are within the rules. It's more of an etiquette question.

^This in a nutshell. I agree that this kind of antic at a home game is inappropriate and low class.