Poll: Are Brad & Don colluding? (1 Viewer)

Is it sketchy for best friends to always sit next to each other at a home game?

  • Yes, it seems sketchy

    Votes: 5 6.3%
  • Nah, it’s no big deal

    Votes: 26 32.9%
  • It’s hard to say

    Votes: 48 60.8%

  • Total voters
    79
Hmmmmmm!!! As common as it is to reserves seats I know understand it’s as common to draw for them.

I think you asking to draw for seats isn’t as off base or insulting as I thought. I would also say it encourages the game to play a little different. However if he says no, that’s still no assumption of guilt.
 
In general, I think this whole thread mainly just points up how difficult it is to truly prove suspicions, unless colluders or cheaters are truly clumsy and crude about it. There are just so many uncertainties and gray areas.
This is one of the reasons seating at my events are not 100% random. The spreadsheet accounts for how players fare when starting at the same table and weights the likelihood they will be seated at different tables when they tend to preform better when sitting together.

Sometimes collusion is not about intentional cheating. It can be coincidence. Either way, the spreadsheet doesn't accuse. It simply just does. Even Mrs Zombie and I are subjected to the same scrutiny when it's a mathematical function.
 
This is one of the reasons seating at my events are not 100% random. The spreadsheet accounts for how players fare when starting at the same table and weights the likelihood they will be seated at different tables when they tend to preform better when sitting together.

Sometimes collusion is not about intentional cheating. It can be coincidence. Either way, the spreadsheet doesn't accuse. It simply just does. Even Mrs Zombie and I are subjected to the same scrutiny when it's a mathematical function.
Is it bad that I REALLY want to see this spreadsheet?
Nerd Problems.
 
Update:

I went back to the game and got there early. I put my bag and coat to the right of the host’s usual seat, i.e. Brad’s seat.

The host looked at my stuff, and kind of made a face, but didn’t ask me to move. So, less evidence of anything fishy.

However, once Brad arrived I waited until he picked a seat (to the left of the host). Then I said I was moving one over to have a better view of the table. Brad jumped to take his usual seat to the host’s right with a speed that would make Usain Bolt jealous.

This struck me as odd because he already had a seat next to his best buddy, on the other side of him, with the same view of the TV. But maybe it was just habit, I dunno.

I did keep an eye on their play, and they definitely do not tangle with each other in big pots very often, if at all. That, too, could just be a function of them considering each other better players, and wanting to focus on exploiting some of the weaker fish at the table. Again, I could suggest some soft collusion, or it could just be a sound strategic decision.

There was, however, one truly odd hand between the two of them. It went multiway to the flop, but Brad raised big, and Don called, the other players, the rest folding. This is I understand it is a fairly common strategy for colluders.

They then checked the hand through the turn and river, with the board showing a guaranteed chop on the river (quads with an A kicker).

The host, Don, flipped over a pocket pair, a full house earlier which which had been counterfeited by the quads.

Brad then *mucked his hand* giving Don the pot that should have been a 100% chop.

My friend, who was the one who raised the seating issue with me originally, said to Brad: “What the fuck are you doing? Why would you do that?”

Brad just kind of mumbled something and shook his head. If he misread the board, I would’ve expected him to say so— it’s the most natural, and maybe the only excuse.

It looked a lot like chip dumping, but it was done in such an all the way that I almost think it must’ve been an accident. Way too unsubtle.

Then again Brad is probably the most hyperaware player in this game, commenting constantly on boards and hands, even when he is not in them. It’s possible that he was distracted, but that would be very uncharacteristic of him in a pot like that.

So, there’s that.

Don said to Brad, “Get your head in the game,” and then everything continued with no further discussion.
I see that as incredibly suspicious. Two people betting big then checking down is already a flag, plus a fold on a solidified board from a player who knows what he's doing/is one of the better players?

Nope, I'm asking to see that hand, as is my right in RRoP. If its a shit hand that they just used to bet it up and isolate I let everyone know my thoughts.
 
I see that as incredibly suspicious. Two people betting big then checking down is already a flag, plus a fold on a solidified board from a player who knows what he's doing/is one of the better players?

Nope, I'm asking to see that hand, as is my right in RRoP. If its a shit hand that they just used to bet it up and isolate I let everyone know my thoughts.
I would find a new game if I had even the slightest suspicions…not worth the anxiety. Poker should be fair…the cards bend you over the table enough. I don’t need Brad taking it to me, as well.
 
There was, however, one truly odd hand between the two of them. It went multiway to the flop, but Brad raised big, and Don called, the other players, the rest folding. This is I understand it is a fairly common strategy for colluders.
Colluders would do that with players in between them, getting calls to get more money in the pot, then chasing the mark out of the pot with an all-in jam. They don’t care which one of them wins, as long as one of them gets the marks’ money.

What you e described makes no sense, but it doesn’t sound like collusion. Chip dumping is only a thing in tournaments. I assumed you guys are playing cash but maybe I’m wrong.
 
There was, however, one truly odd hand between the two of them. It went multiway to the flop, but Brad raised big, and Don called, the other players, the rest folding. This is I understand it is a fairly common strategy for colluders.

They then checked the hand through the turn and river, with the board showing a guaranteed chop on the river (quads with an A kicker).

The host, Don, flipped over a pocket pair, a full house earlier which which had been counterfeited by the quads.

Brad then *mucked his hand* giving Don the pot that should have been a 100% chop.

My friend, who was the one who raised the seating issue with me originally, said to Brad: “What the fuck are you doing? Why would you do that?”

Brad just kind of mumbled something and shook his head. If he misread the board, I would’ve expected him to say so— it’s the most natural, and maybe the only excuse.

...

Then again Brad is probably the most hyperaware player in this game, commenting constantly on boards and hands, even when he is not in them. It’s possible that he was distracted, but that would be very uncharacteristic of him in a pot like that.

Maybe this was an honest mistake, and due to his reputation as a hyperaware player, he was so embarrassed that he couldn't come up with anything to say.

Or he mucked because he didn't want to show the J4o he was holding...

(I could see in my group, after the guaranteed chop was on the table, one guy shoving for fun fully expecting to be called by any remaining players, and another player, distracted, drunk, etc. folding to the big bet accidentally.)
 
This is one of the reasons seating at my events are not 100% random. The spreadsheet accounts for how players fare when starting at the same table and weights the likelihood they will be seated at different tables when they tend to preform better when sitting together.
On the one hand I 100% appreciate the lengths you go to as a host. Kind of awestruck honestly.
On the other hand it’s more than a little bit insane micro management.
 
Maybe this was an honest mistake, and due to his reputation as a hyperaware player, he was so embarrassed that he couldn't come up with anything to say.

Or he mucked because he didn't want to show the J4o he was holding...
The only reason to play J4o is to show J4o....am I right? I know you were kidding...
 
Colluders would do that with players in between them, getting calls to get more money in the pot, then chasing the mark out of the pot with an all-in jam. They don’t care which one of them wins, as long as one of them gets the marks’ money.

What you e described makes no sense, but it doesn’t sound like collusion. Chip dumping is only a thing in tournaments. I assumed you guys are playing cash but maybe I’m wrong.
Not chip dumping, but if he flips over a 7-2 that he bet big on the flop, then checked the whole way? He can laugh it off and say it was a bluff. Oh well, took a shot n quit. Mucking looks even more suspicious, like he'd feel guilty showing and wasnt even thinking of the board, just how to leave the hand and get clear.
 
Not chip dumping, but if he flips over a 7-2 that he bet big on the flop, then checked the whole way? He can laugh it off and say it was a bluff. Oh well, took a shot n quit. Mucking looks even more suspicious, like he'd feel guilty showing and wasnt even thinking of the board, just how to leave the hand and get clear.
That would be my best guess as to what happened. That seems more likely than anything else.
And maybe I’m just missing it, but what else could have been going on - how are we reading collusion into this? Assuming the worst, what were they trying to do?
 
That would be my best guess as to what happened. That seems more likely than anything else.
And maybe I’m just missing it, but what else could have been going on - how are we reading collusion into this? Assuming the worst, what were they trying to do?
You're right, they weren't squeezing anybody and the seating isnt optimal for that type of collusion, but its fine for profit sharing.

If we were cheating, Id have the right guy raise, left call, and if theres any calls, left guy now can take the lead, either betting or raising aggressively to iso. This type of squeeze is that much stronger; everyone checks to preflop raiser who bets and then gets raised OOP.

If everyone folds, Id have lefty open raise the river to fold right out no suspicion. But with a quads/A board, no bet necessary and both hands have to show. If players are profit sharing, this is worst case scenario; both hands should show and hope the action made sense. On normal boards lefty was going to bet and scare right out but board came as a made hand and made the bet pointless, right got nervous n mucked anyways.

I'm overly critical when people that know the rules do things like this. Sure, shit happens, but the smoke that weve talked about with seating, now a solid player bets to iso against his buddy who he needs to sit next to, checks down the board then mucks a chop? Fuck lotta smoke lol. Im seeing that hand.
 
That would be my best guess as to what happened. That seems more likely than anything else.
And maybe I’m just missing it, but what else could have been going on - how are we reading collusion into this? Assuming the worst, what were they trying to do?

One can only make logical inferences from the results.

One theory that others have advanced above is that Brad, for some reason, did not want to show his hand, and it was worth giving up a large split pot to hide it.

That reason might be simple embarrassment about what garbage he had played, and attached a lot of money to.

Another might be that if he showed a very weak and improbable hand, it would raise questions about their relationship.

Another might be that the host was stuck somewhat in the game, and his buddy wanted to help boost his stack.

Or he just had a brain fart.

I have some suspicions that the pair split their winnings from each session. One reason is my observation of their play, staying out of each others way or, as in this case, helping to clear out villains, when they are both in a pot. In that scenario, losing half the pot would not matter.

Another reason for this suspicion is that Brad is always the last person to leave at the end of the night (besides the host of course). I pretty much always stay until the game breaks, even if that is at 4 AM. As the remaining players exit, Brad stays behind. Maybe he’s helps his buddy clean up. That would be entirely normal. Or maybe they’re divvying up their take.

Obviously, weird hands happen all the time in poker. I’ve seen stranger things happen at tables. It was just notable that this hand happened between those two, as opposed to any other random combination of regulars.
 
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I see that as incredibly suspicious. Two people betting big then checking down is already a flag, plus a fold on a solidified board from a player who knows what he's doing/is one of the better players?

Nope, I'm asking to see that hand, as is my right in RRoP. If its a shit hand that they just used to bet it up and isolate I let everyone know my thoughts.
Yeah, this hand -- in context with the other reported behaviors -- is like a warning beacon to me.

I'm sure as heck gonna at least ask him what he mucked, and not let it go quietly, either. I'd badger the crap outta him until I got some kind of response that either made sense or was incriminating.

And if he refused to show or say what he threw away.... well, I might just have to invoke that right, or remind him that I do have it per the rules It's for circumstances exactly like this that the rule exists.

Merely being called out in public without any associated accusations might be enough for them to reconsider their team play, if there is any.
 
Game still running?

I'd just tell the host, "Hey. One of the guys approached me to talk to you about something, and I don't disagree with him. It's not who you think, probably not even the third guy you'd think it is. He would like everyone to draw for seating, except for you as banker, as he feels the poor seating arrangement is the reason that he's been losing. He was talking about just quitting the game, but I told him I'd talk to you first."

Some people are acting like wanting to draw for seats is some kind of accusation. It's not, no more than insisting on not burning the turn and river early, or using a cut card. They are all security measures that are trivial to implement. Drawing for seats has the added benefit that the table dynamics never get stale. Once in a blue moon at my home game, we get Shawn, John, and Larry all sitting side by side. This means that once in a blue moon we get a night of nonstop triple straddles. We're playing the usual game still, but we're not.

It's a free security measure that preemptively removes a potential source of hard feelings or mistrust. If OP's game had been using it all along, this thread would have not been made, and OP wouldn't be questioning the legitimacy of his (probably) totally square game.

/$0.02
 
Is it bad that I REALLY want to see this spreadsheet?
Nerd Problems.
So he’d be tracking my wins and losses. I’m sorry but that’s sort of weird.

As the host I watch for things if I see something I think about it. I don’t see things. We do have some couples that come in and out. It’s a lower stakes game (we still have many $40+ pots every night) but it’s still my job to be aware.

We’re a sit where you want house.
 
So just to add my 2¢, from the original post alone, absolutely no way to know to assume collusion. I would need some hand history to make a decision on that.

I think it is fair to point to the host that FCFS is the standard paradigm for cash games. (Though I am aware there may be merits in drawing in some circumstances that have other threads on PCF.) I actually think @Taghkanic nicely (and perhaps understatedly) made his point in post #179.

There was, however, one truly odd hand between the two of them. It went multiway to the flop, but Brad raised big, and Don called, the other players, the rest folding. This is I understand it is a fairly common strategy for colluders.
Unless Don bet out first, all this looks like is a big bet no one wanted to call, that's not really a strategy for collusion.

They then checked the hand through the turn and river, with the board showing a guaranteed chop on the river (quads with an A kicker).

The host, Don, flipped over a pocket pair, a full house earlier which which had been counterfeited by the quads.

Brad then *mucked his hand* giving Don the pot that should have been a 100% chop.
This I grant is concerning. It's possible this was just a screw-up in a rare situation. But I think this is the first truly suspicious thing in this thread.

Then again Brad is probably the most hyperaware player in this game, commenting constantly on boards and hands, even when he is not in them. It’s possible that he was distracted, but that would be very uncharacteristic of him in a pot like that.

On the other hand, I like to think I am hyper-aware as well, but I have been known to show down the occasional straight without realizing there all of a sudden is no nine in my hand that I need.

But honestly, if you are suspicious enough, you should probably quit the game. Even if you get them to agree to a seat draw, that wouldn't inhibit all collusion/signaling if you think any of that is going on. You won't be at ease and that's bad for your game, even if the the suspicions are not true.
 

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