Poll: Are Brad & Don colluding? (1 Viewer)

[Taghkanic]

I play a few times a month at a weekly home game in my area. I’ve known the host for about 7-8 years. There are almost always 9 players, about 6 of whom are very regular, plus a rotating cast of occasionals.

The host is a decent guy, with a good job (i.e. he doesn’t really need poker winnings to get by.) He’s a solid but not exceptional player. Let’s call him Don.

His best friend plays in the game, and is a much better player than the host. Probably the winningest player in the game. He depends more on poker income than most in the game. Let’s call him Brad.

A friend who’s also a reg in the game reached out to me between games and asked: “Ever notice how Brad always sits to Don’s right?”

My friend had been the first to arrive at a recent game. Don (the host) already had his chips in his usual spot in the 5 seat, facing the TV.

When my friend put his knapsack and coat down on the 4 seat, Don said: “Oh, Brad is sitting there.” (Brad had not arrived.) So my friend moved to another seat.

My friend raised the question of whether I thought it was odd or in some way improper that they always sit next to each other. He raised the question if they were colluding somehow, or gaining some kind of advantage by doing so.

What do you think? (I’ll put some thoughts of my own in a follow-up comments.)

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Without any supporting evidence, it just seems like two best friends want to sit next to eachother. Are we supposed to say "yes they're cheating" just on this?

 

[Statesvegas]

I think we need more to assess whether or not there is collusion. It could be simply a good seat to watch the television.

As an aside, we always draw for seats each game with me as host seated in the dealer position to handle the chip drawer.

 

[bigblind]

draw for seats

 

[Taghkanic]

This is a 2/5 game BTW which plays pretty big by the end of the night.

So I had not really noticed their habit of sitting next to each other every game until my friend pointed it out, but as soon as I did I realized he was right.

It could be quite innocent: Best friends wanting to sit together. But I can think of some ways that such an arrangement might benefit them.

Some more details:

The two have played cards together for at least two decades, I believe since they were in high school. From their chatter, it’s clear they have spent years discussing hands, opponents, and strategy quite a lot.

They also know each other’s games very well. So more than when you play a random villian, they probably understand what each other’s actions (flat, open, raise, 3bet, etc.) and bet sizes mean from those positions, especially preflop.

Brad is the more aggressive player. By sitting to Don’s right, that means that when he makes a button play, he is pressuring only Don’s small blind, never his big blind.

I’ll have to watch this dynamic more closely in future games, but I believe that Don rarely defends his small blind in that situation.

I can’t recall them battling each other for a big pot more than a very few times.

It is of course a lot easier to let a sidekick peek at your cards if you sit next to each other.

Generally I wouldn't think it was such a big deal. But the way Don booted my friend out of the 4 seat to his right to make way for Brad raises some suspicions.

 

[Taghkanic]

draw for seats

I agree, but it’s not my game. I could try insisting on it but can’t control the decision.

 

[Frogzilla]

Don always sits in the 5 seat and brad always sits in the 4 seat? Is it just usual seating preference?

Even if its not they like “their seat”, and they are always wanting to sit by each other, I play a regular online game where there are two people who always want position on me and always take the seat to my direct left if it’s open. I prefer one of them actually on my direct left so I sit to his right if I can. I can assure you I’m not colluding at all. Not all seats are equal.

 

[Taghkanic]

It could be simply a good seat to watch the television.

True, though Brad seldom pays any attention to the TV. (One of the other longtime regs is a hockey fanatic and typically bullies the host into putting on a hockey game though the rest of us have little interest in hockey.)

Also, there are at least four seats with a good view of the (very large) TV. So there are other options besides them always sitting next to each other with Brad always to Don’s right.

 

[Statesvegas]

There is "intentional collusion", and then there is the benefit of having developed knowledge of a player's habits over time that can be used to one's advantage (to the detriment of the other). I would not sit at a game where certain players got to pick their own seats based on who they were sitting next to, because all scenarios place them both at an advantage over the other players because of their history.

 

[Taghkanic]

Don always sits in the 5 seat and brad always sits in the 4 seat? Is it just usual seating preference?

Even if its not they like “their seat”, and they are always wanting to sit by each other, I play a regular online game where there are two people who always want position on me and always take the seat to my direct left if it’s open. I prefer one of them actually on my direct left so I sit to his right if I can. I can assure you I’m not colluding at all. Not all seats are equal.

Yes. (Per above, another player tried to sit in the 4 seat and got moved.)

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Generally I wouldn't think it was such a big deal. But the way Don booted my friend out of the 4 seat to his right to make way for Brad raises some suspicions.

I understand this mindset but just bring it up. If Ive played cards with someone for decades and deal my own game and have a good view of the TV, I want him to my side to watch my beloved Islanders beat his fuckin Rangers.

Edit: Ha! Posted this without reading your comment on hockey fans, thats hysterical.

 

[Taghkanic]

FWIW, I am often a late arrival and thus wind up with whatever seat is left open.

 

[ChipFinderSK]

No evidence of collusion based on OP. But since a regular player has brought it up, it’s not a bad idea to have everyone except the host draw for seats.

If Brad or Don vehemently oppose the random draw idea, that might say something, and then I’d pay more attention to how they play against each other.

 

[LowerBama1714]

draw for seats

Problem solved

 

[ekricket]

We need more info about brad and dons wife’s, friends, and workers as well as a list of recent events they have attended before we can make any kind of judgement about them. Don’t need any more info about the game, just who they associate with and their arrest records is all we need to make a determination.

 

[Eriks]

Ask for a seat draw. There’s really no valid excuse to not do one.

 

[Taghkanic]

Ask for a seat draw. There’s really no valid excuse to not do one.

Agreed, though it would be kind of awkward to demand it now, after playing there almost weekly for 6-8 months. The request would almost surely be viewed as a tacit accusation.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Ask for a seat draw. There’s really no valid excuse to not do one.

"Its my game, I like sitting next to my best friend." I understand where you're coming from, but if weve been playing casually for decades, I may not want to switch it up. Thats a valid excuse for most home games.

That being said, you're right, avoids lotta problems.

 

[Frogzilla]

Best guess as described is that host wants position on the best player.

 

[Taghkanic]

Here’s a related question, put more generally:

If you are close friends with the player in the 5 seat, and know his/her tendencies very well, but prefer not to battle him for pots, which seat do you pick?

(I’m not sure the 4 seat is the most obvious choice. I might prefer the 8 or 9 seat, so that I’m UTG/UTG+1 when my best friend is in the cutoff or on the button, meaning that I am folding a high percentage of cards when he is most likely to try to steal preflop or bet in position post flop.)

 

[Taghkanic]

Best guess as described is that host wants position on the best player.

Good point.

The wrinkle here is that the best player also prefers that seat, and they seem to have agreed to always sit that way.

 

[CraigT78]

So if you've been playing here for many years, a long running game, with a group of 5-6 solid regs, why is this now an issue?

I wouldn't suggest saying or doing anything or you'll likely find yourself without a game.

From what has been described, dude just likes sitting next to his buddy.

I have a regular group of 6-7 and we kind of naturally have our seats. There is nothing sketchy going on. Joe likes to see the TV, Brad wants to be in arms reach of the beer, Mike and John cannot sit next to each other due to conflict, etc.

 

[Eriks]

Agreed, though it would be kind of awkward to demand it now, after playing there almost weekly for 6-8 months. The request would almost surely be viewed as a tacit accusation.

Don’t demand it, but ask nicely. Plenty of logical reasons to do it, not many good ones to not do it. Has to sit next to his best friend? What is this, elementary school? If he refuses a draw I would be suspicious and watch them extra closely from now on

 

[Taghkanic]

So if you've been playing here for many years, a long running game, with a group of 5-6 solid regs, why is this not an issue?

I’ve not been playing there for many years. I’ve been playing with most of these regs for many years, but typically at my house or other venues where seating is random. Don only started hosting games regularly this year.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Problem solved

Well it's not his game.
To play devils advocate:
I have a player in my game who always wants to sit in seat 7. It's "his seat" and he always makes a big stink whenever someone else attempts to sit there.
None of the others care so we let him sit in "his" seat. He's comes for the action and usually donates to the others so everyone is fine with it.

Right now it could be just a case of two guys who like sitting next to each other since they're old friends.
I'm pretty sure the host enjoys having the best player at the table (which usually means he is pretty aggressive) to his right without actual collision taking place.

I'd just ask the house why that one player gets to have his own seat and if that doesn't seem unfair to him.

He might rethink his policy and if not you can be on the lookout for something more concrete evidence-wise or avoid this game in the future.

 

[Taghkanic]

Don’t demand it, but ask nicely. Plenty of logical reasons to do it, not many good ones to not do it. Has to sit next to his best friend? What is this, elementary school? If he refuses a draw I would be suspicious and watch them extra closely from now on

Agreed.

But my move will probably be to try to replicate my friend’s experience—arrive early, casually pick the 4 seat, then see if Don reacts the same way. If he refuses to seat me there, I can then say, “No fair, that’s my favorite seat, how about we draw for seats” and not have it seem as awkward.

 

[Eriks]

So if you've been playing here for many years, a long running game, with a group of 5-6 solid regs, why is this not an issue?

I wouldn't suggest saying or doing anything or you'll likely find yourself without a game.

From what has been described, dude just likes sitting next to his buddy.

I have a regular group of 6-7 and we kind of naturally have our seats. There is nothing sketchy going on. Joe likes to see the TV, Brad wants to be in arms reach of the beer, Mike and John cannot sit next to each other due to conflict, etc.

I agree that absolutely doesn’t have to mean anything but there’s also no reason to refuse a draw if someone requests it

 

[CraigT78]

I’ve not been playing there for many years. I’ve been playing with most of these regs for many years, but typically at my house or other venues where seating is random. Don only started hosting games regularly this year.

Thanks for the clarification.

Has this occured in the games past or at your house?

 

[ekricket]

Just ask Don if there’s a reason he prefers to sit next to Bradley every time. Talk to him, say the group noticed and was wondering. Truth goes a long ways but I know it’s frowned upon nowadays.

 

[CraigT78]

I agree that absolutely doesn’t have to mean anything but there’s also no reason to refuse a draw if someone requests it

I understand that, and don't disagree. I'm stating it's not worth going against the grain of a game, if this is your only complaint. If it were me, I'd watch John and Joe and see if there was anything funny going on, if not, not worth disturbing the game based off "principal"