PAHWM: $2/5 NL ATs (1 Viewer)

[Payback]

@Schmendr1ck and I talked about this hand quite a bit on the ride home last night as this was a session defining hand. Figured I'd post it up for you all to discuss as this hand could be played multiple ways and might lead to some good discussion.

Background:
Hero is currently stuck a buy in prior to dinner losing with KK/AA. Came back from dinner and got a new table which sucked so he tabled changed to this one and has been here for about an hour. Feeling good and so far has been playing his A game.

Game Dynamics:
The softest spot at the table left about 10 minutes ago and this current game is tight. However a guy who limped 92o UTG is still here (what does that say about the guy who left...). Hero is straddling $10 on the button everytime, but from not other position. No one else at this table is straddling. Hero's image is probably a bit nittier than usual at this point as he's been card dead.

Also in case it matters the casino is currently doing $400 for a royal promotion plus $750 for high hand per half hour. So far As full has won twice out of about 12 or 13 times.

Player Info:
CO: Even though we are playing shorter, CO has only played 1 hand this orbit where he 3 bet PF, and got a fold to a flop cbet. Seems TAG, but could also br uber tight or super card dead, but it's hard to tell which at this point. CO stack covers Hero.

Hand:
Currently playing 7 handed and Hero is UTG+1 sitting on $1,600 with . No straddle is on this hand.

Preflop:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, folds to CO who 3bets to $70, folds back to Hero. What's the move?

 

[Rhodeman77]

What are effective stacks? Safe to assume nobody is short stacked?

I probably open to $20 most of the time, but also like a limp 3 bet line with this hand, especially against a cut off or button raise.

We have good hand removal and a hand that can play well post flop if called.

 

[Payback]

What are effective stacks? Safe to assume nobody is short stacked?

I probably open to $20 most of the time, but also like a limp 3 bet line with this hand, especially against a cut off or button raise.

We have good hand removal if we are called and a hand that can play well post flop if called.

Shit I knew I forgot something... On about 3 hours sleep...Fixing OP now.

 

[Kain8]

Bad thing #1 - Hands that are likely to 3 bet at a tight table that you're ahead of / flipping with is maybe pocket nines only, but that's hopeful.

Bad thing #2 - You've been card dead (because you have total control over that!) so Ace Ten suited looks like the crown jewels when you get it in this mindset.

Good thing #1 - With a $1,600 stack and a hand that can flop a lot of equity, you're pretty damn deep. If you miss the flop altogether you can duck out pretty quickly.

Good thing #2 - You're never donk betting into the CO so you're checking your whole range (I hope!) to him anyway. You effectively "have position" on the flop on the CO.


Let's call and play some cards.

 

[DrStrange]

I'd rate folding and calling about the same. The SPR would be something like 11. Too big for a one pair hand but too small for a speculative hand. No man's land indeed.

I lean fold but could live with a call. Bad position plus a weak ace aren't a good combination. Hero is going to have to call at least one bet with a pair of aces should that flop. Hero needs to flop a big draw or better to feel good about the situation.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hero is straddling $10 on the button everytime, but from not other position. No one else at this table is straddling. Hero's image is probably a bit nittier than usual at this point as he's been card dead.

This seems contradictory, why would hero have a nitty image if he is the only one straddling? If hero straddling isn't exuding looseness, (and inspiring looseness in others) then what's the point?

Currently playing 7 handed and Hero is UTG+1 sitting on $1,600 with . No straddle is on this hand.

Preflop:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, folds to CO who 3bets to $70, folds back to Hero. What's the move?

I think this is really on the edge and against this particular villian, I lean toward a hero fold. No problem with opening with a 4x raise pre so long as that's a consistent size and I think 7 handed ATs is good enough. But I think it's probably the bottom of your raising range and the tight guy 3 betting has hero in bad shape and isn't really laying good odds. If he went with a smaller sizing of 50-60, maybe I would think about it more because the pot odds are now good enough to compensate for spots where hero is a 2-1 dog, but 70 is too much. (And on the other hand if villian is tight it might be tough to get value when hero outdraws.)

Hero will have better hands to take to the fight in this spot. I think I like a fold.

 

[Rhodeman77]

All your options are viable here. Most of the time call and check as @Kain8 said. But mixing in a 4 bet $250 with the intention to fold if jammed on is something I’d do a small percentage as well. Hero opened from early position so a 4 bet is going to look very strong and should fold out all but the very best of his hands.

And it may cost Hero less than if he flops top pair if he is behind AK/AQ type hand

 

[Payback]

This seems contradictory, why would hero have a nitty image if he is the only one straddling? If hero straddling isn't exuding looseness, (and inspiring looseness in others) then what's the point?

A few players who had left were also straddling so it it was only exclusive to the remaining players and I don't think they considered it out of the norm. Also, this room allows a button straddle and therefore a straddle is not uncommon in this game.

 

[Moxie Mike]

It's $50 to see the flop knowing you're committed to playing fit or fold poker at this point, OOP against an assumed TAG.

I don't mind a call - but folding is probably better for all the reasons AT suited doesn't play well OOP against one opponent..

I don't think 4-betting is an option here... you really don't have any information to suggest that Villian is 3-betting light or would relent to the additional pressure. All a reraise accomplishes is inflates the pot while you're almost always way behind.

 

[Payback]

All your options are viable here. Most of the time call and check as @Kain8 said. But mixing in a 4 bet $250 with the intention to fold if jammed on is something I’d do a small percentage as well. Hero opened from early position so a 4 bet is going to look very strong and should fold out all but the very best of his hands.

And it may cost Hero less than if he flops top pair if he is behind AK/AQ type hand

This is most definitely within Hero's playbook but Hero's 4 bet "bluff" range is the weaker Ax suited hands like A2-A5s. Typically though if Heros doing this they need to be more active than this villain has shown.

Hero is definitely not getting married to an A high flop if calling the 3bet.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hero is definitely not getting married to an A high flop if calling the 3bet.

This kind of illustrates the problem with calling the 3 bet. Hero is pretty much only continuing with two pair or the nut flush draw (and the odd double gutter I suppose.)

Not enough flops to justify the call.

To me the reason to continue is to assume villian is pair heavy and hero will usually be ahead on ace high flops. (Except when against AA, AK, or how many A-x hand villian raises)

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

If you think your image is nitty, and you're getting three bet after raising in early position you’re probably way behind in the hand. Coupled with the fact that you’d be playing the rest of the hand out of position I think a fold here is in order.

 

[Payback]

This kind of illustrates the problem with calling the 3 bet. Hero is pretty much only continuing with two pair or the nut flush draw (and the odd double gutter I suppose.)

Not enough flops to justify the call.

To me the reason to continue is to assume villian is pair heavy and hero will usually be ahead on ace high flops. (Except when against AA, AK, or how many A-x hand villian raises)

The thing is Hero flops big (TTx, ATx, KQJ boards, flushes, etc.) we have the potential to win 300bb from villain. There is definitely a case of RIO though on A high boards or an ATx when CO holds the one combo left of AA.

 

[Kain8]

The thing is Hero flops big (TTx, ATx, KQJ boards, flushes, etc.) we have the potential to win 300bb from villain. There is definitely a case of RIO though on A high boards or an ATx when CO holds the one combo left of AA.

This is the major factor leading to a call. We're deep, Hero knows not to stack off with just top pair, and he knows what he wants to flop against a perceived range of JJ - AA, and AQ+.

 

[Payback]

Getting 2:1 and having 40% of a royal hero is not folding as Hero wants to see a flop. Plus this would be a crappy discussion if Hero folded so...

Hand:
Currently playing 7 handed and Hero is UTG+1 sitting on $1,600 with . No straddle is on this hand.

Preflop:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, folds to CO who 3bets to $70, folds back to Hero who calls.

Flop ($147):
Hero ???

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Checking here is your best option, what are you trying to rep by donk betting? You could check raise here for sure, but you might have to follow that up with a big bet on the turn. Or you could check call here, and check bomb the turn, which looks super strong. If villain checks behind, leading out on the turn makes any bet look more believable.

 

[Kain8]

About as good of a flop we could get, besides flopping a made hand or trip tens.

(Channeling my inner Brad Owen here now)

The only hand where we don't have fantastic equity now is against precisely AA and even then you still have your flush outs. We can have all the sets and our TAG opponent can really only have top set, if that.

I'd be constructing in my mind a SIZABLE check-raise. If our opponent bets $100 for example, we need to make it somewhere in the $500 range at least. This allows us to nearly empty the clip on all turns, no matter what falls. A naked overpair will have a tough time calling a near $1,000 bet if they don't improve themselves on the turn. Even if called, you still have at least 9 club outs, and even 3 Ace outs against TT - KK.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

About as good of a flop we could get, besides flopping a made hand or trip tens.

(Channeling my inner Brad Owen here now)

The only hand where we don't have fantastic equity now is against precisely AA and even then you still have your flush outs. We can have all the sets and our TAG opponent can really only have top set, if that.

I'd be constructing in my mind a SIZABLE check-raise. If our opponent bets $100 for example, we need to make it somewhere in the $500 range at least. This allows us to nearly empty the clip on all turns, no matter what falls. A naked overpair will have a tough time calling a near $1,000 bet if they don't improve themselves on the turn. Even if called, you still have at least 9 club outs, and even 3 Ace outs against TT - KK.

I think a smaller check raise to about $350 would allow us to empty the clip on the turn, while making villain much less pot committed.

 

[JustinInMN]

The thing is Hero flops big (TTx, ATx, KQJ boards, flushes, etc.) we have the potential to win 300bb from villain.

Hero has that potential with every suited hand in the opening range. The better aces however have the upside of winning kicker wars or having two cards that could improve when villian has pairs. Alos if villian really is pegged as tight, it's really tough to get the whole stack. I think this play is better reserved for hands when you feel better about the ace high flops or top pair flops with the other card.

Flop ($147):
Hero ???

Since we called I think Kain8 is on the right track.

You're never donk betting into the CO so you're checking your whole range (I hope!) to him anyway.

You are probably going to miss a lot calling three bets here. Need to protect those check-fold spots with some check calls and check raises. So which is this.

So if villian is tight postflop raising after a bet seems like a game theory disaster. If he has is when he bets he's going to get it in, though (again Kain on point) we have good equity against anything in villian's range.

Check raise and plan to get it in seems okay here, but I would like it better against a player that could bet AJo so we could get some fold equity too.

 

[Payback]

Hand:
Currently playing 7 handed and Hero is UTG+1 sitting on $1,600 with . No straddle is on this hand.

Preflop:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, folds to CO who 3bets to $70, folds back to Hero who calls.

Flop ($147):
Hero checks, CO bets $90, Hero ???

 

[Changster]

I can’t find anywhere that says what the stack of the CO is?

 

[Payback]

I can’t find anywhere that says what the stack of the CO is?

He covers the $1600 stack of Hero.

 

[Kain8]

Pot is at $327 after we call, so my plan remains the same. Raise to $500 - $600 to make a turn shove easy.

 

[Changster]

To me it’s not really about what to do in this particular hand. It’s more about having an overall strategy for flush draws.

Preflop looks completely standard. Flop right now looks standard-ish outside the overbet. But given stack sizes it‘s still not too far off.

In a 3 bet pot out of position with the nut flush draw, I mainly call and sometimes check raise for balance. The check raise is to make it hard for someone to always c bet you.

But again this is part of an overall strategy that has been worked out for many flush draw scenarios, not just this one.

 

[Changster]

Preflop, a pretty standard RFI vs 3 bet range in a LJ vs CO scenario is you can either call or fold ATs. Both are fine. Personally at 2/5 stakes I’d call. Within the Ax suited hands, I’d be calling ATs+, 4bet valuing AKs, 4 bet bluffing A4s-A5s, folding A6s-A7s, and either folding or 4 bet bluffing the rest of the Ax suited hands. In general what’s happening here is you should be picking out which hands are value/bluff/folds here given you have all suited Aces in your range in the LJ. Suited aces are great in deep stack but you still have to pick out folds. So A6-A9 are all good folds because the lack of straight draws. The best wheel draw ones are good 4 bet bluffs. AKs is an obvious 4 bet raise for value hand. A10-AQs are medium strength hands you can use as calls. And the rest you can either fold or 4bet bluff depending on what you think the CO’s 3betting range is. I’d 4bet bluff more if I feel like CO is 3betting too light.

On the flop, you’re checking 100% of your range which is completely standard.

The CO preflop 3betting range vs LJ open is something like JJ+, AQo+, AQs+, a couple Ax suited, and maybe some lower suited connectors and 1 gappers. Given you have an A in your hand you can discount a lot of those A hands. So there’s a strong possibility of overpairs and maybe low suited connectors/1gappers.

When faced with a bet and you have 2 overs and the nut flush draw you are way too strong to fold given your equity and implied odds.

So again, you need an overall flush draw strategy.

Personally I like calling nut flush draws and raising weaker draws.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah I still haven't made up my mind on this one.

No folding here, hero has too much equity.

But if villian is tight and betting I feel hero will face a three so hero is playing for stacks.

Good news is hero is probably a favorite against anything except AA. So I guess it's embrace the variance and play for stacks. Or play it careful.

 

[Changster]

You should be ahead of CO’s range on the flop.

 

[Kain8]

 

[Payback]

Can't make it too easy here. Turn brings no improvement, but does complete the 87 straight draw.

Hand:
Currently playing 7 handed and Hero is UTG+1 sitting on $1,600 with . No straddle is on this hand.

Preflop:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $20, folds to CO who 3bets to $70, folds back to Hero who calls.

Flop ($147):
Hero checks, CO bets $90, Hero thinks about what size he would use with sets, 87, and raises to $250. CO thinks for a bit and flats.

Turn ($647):

Hero ???

 

[JustinInMN]

I am a little surprised villian didn't shove here, but flatting has the advantage of putting hero in an awkward spot on a miss.

If hero checks he probably will face a value bet. If hero bets he is probably getting stationed. So a half pot bet probably let's hero at least set the price. Checking may be good here if villian may be passive enough to check behind despite an obvious green light.

But it really feels like villian has a big pair and is going to station anything save a club. How often does does hero really have 8-7 opening +1?

Villian probably could worry about 99. Does hero have the other sets ever? Hero almost never has two pair I assume.

However, the bad part of checking is villian could price out the draw.

I think a defensive half pot bet is the way, going to have to re evauluate if hero faces a shove.