What would you do? Fold AKo? (2 Viewers)

[TAG_Cowboys]

Preflop:
Hero : in UTG
Open-bet 9 BB

4 callers: UTG +1 , CO , HJ, BTN

Flop:


Hero: Checks for deception

• UTG +1 checks
• CO jams 86 BB all in
• Folds to Hero

Context on usual game
- Cash game
- Mix of tight and aggressive players
- Preflop raise of 5/6 BB usually gets one or two callers
- Couple of players are casual tournament participants
- Villain is a solid player who mixes up her plays, have seen her jam all-in with air in previous sessions


Call or fold?

Spoiler: CO's hand

Before making the call, I rationalized that I only lose to 2 specific hands, 99 /
Mayyybeee, I can make a case for , although unlikely cos of bigger sized preflop bet.
I disregarded AA cos no 3bet preflop

Thinking that my trap worked and I'm up against AQ combos (maybe AK), Hero calls.
CO shows

Will yall do the same? Please share your thoughts!

 

[varoadstter]

36 BB in before flop? I call. No reason for villain to bet huge with a set. Even trying to protect with two pair is an overplay. You have top top, so it's possible he's just fallen for your trap. If you fold here, when can you ever play your hand aggressively?

Without any further info, I'm rejamming if not covered. If he's playing this way and has you drawing thin/dead, so be it. Definitely a thing to take note of.

 

[JMC9389]

No way I'm folding top pair with best kicker.

Call and I'm reaching for the wallet when villain's hearts or 7/8 gets there.

 

[bernielomax]

You lose to pocket 6’s and pocket 9’s. With villain being a solid player who mixes things up, you also could be up against a flush draw or a suited connector hands like 78.

With 4 callers on the flop and the villain being a solid player, I am probably folding unless I have the .

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Opens to 9bb, is this a tournament? What are the stack sizes like?

If a 5/6 BB gets one or two callers, why are you opening to 9 BB UTG? Is it because you don't want to play AKo out of position? And what's your reputation like, if 5 BB usually only gets one caller but your 9BB gets 4 callers?

It looks like they're set mining against you knowing if you hit your ace, you'll go bananas. She could be doing this with a flush draw, dominated Aces, sets. I call in a cash game. If I hand wave what the tournaments like and any bubble/money considerations, I can find a call but really depends on why I'm opening like that and what it says to her.

Spoiler: Peeped the spoiler

Okay, I think your trap worked for sure, but is this a common trap you lay? It seems like she played you perfectly; she knew if her set hit you'd be paying, and that may be why we've got 4 callers. Sorry you lost the hand, most of its just a cooler but we've gotta assess pre-flop implications. I'm suspicious that this play is common, to bet more than the usual pre-flop open and go broke with top pair. Get back to us with tournament info, I'm interested if that changes the spot.

When a solid player gets lucky on me like this, I just want to reassess what I did to enable that luck.

 

[LeLe]

9bb UTG+1 raise and CO calling range and a Jam 2 x pot into 3 other person

So unlikely to see any A9o A6o 69o, not even Boardwalk suited as well

V likely hand are 66 99 who worry to see a turn or A6s A9s who also worry to see a turn

Possible semi-bluff are 78h, A4h to A8h and maybe JTh.

You might also get freeroll if V have AK with heart too

I felt there more value hand over semi bluff hand here and there’s a lot better spot to call here besides AKo

I think I will call if I holding A or K of heart but fold if I not holding any heart

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

If a 5/6 BB gets one or two callers, why are you opening to 9 BB UTG? Is it because you don't want to play AKo out of position? And what's your reputation like, if 5 BB usually only gets one caller but your 9BB gets 4 callers?

good question.
in their words, I'm a tight player that "rarely steps out of line"

It's like what you asked, I raised to 9 BB cos of position, thinking to take down the pot preflop, altho I wudnt be in bad shape if called.

We play these cash games regularly together, almost once a week so everyone is rather familiar with one another's game.


*PS*
While I think it's not the worst decision ever made, I'm jus wondering if there were other angles that I shud also have considered while in the tank.
Cheers!

 

[mho]

Take this with a grain of salt because I’m a newbie fish calling station, but as played I’m sigh-folding here. Betting into that many players is already polarizing, and the overbet jam just makes it that much more nutted. In multiway pots you have to be super strong to bet due to so many players who could still raise. My gut feel is they’re not doing this with worse than AK. Maybe exactly ?

Beginner question: isn’t holding the worse to call with, because it has removal to their pair plus flush draw type semi bluffs that were ahead of?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

good question.
in their words, I'm a tight player that "rarely steps out of line"

It's like what you asked, I raised to 9 BB cos of position, thinking to take down the pot preflop, altho I wudnt be in bad shape if called.

We play these cash games regularly together, almost once a week so everyone is rather familiar with one another's game.


*PS*
While I think it's not the worst decision ever made, I'm jus wondering if there were other angles that I shud also have considered while in the tank.
Cheers!

Sure, I get that. Good job asking the questions, sorry half my answer was about tournament play lol, had that mindset on for some reason.

Just be careful, if you're raising more because you just want to take down the pot, seems like they figured that out. If they're a solid player theyve got a lot of AX in your range, making that shove profitable rather than betting smaller and building a pot. When you say you're tight and rarely out of line, that reads as predictable and 4 callers to a big pre-flop bet agrees, they think they can get into a pot and hit a big hand and take all your money when you've got a decent hand. Won't always work because you have a stronger range, but this call will embolden them.

 

[LeLe]

Beginner question: isn’t holding the worse to call with, because it has removal to their pair plus flush draw type semi bluffs that were ahead of?

Holding Ah / Kh at this spot mean you will have extra 2% back-door equity and also at the same time denying the V FD equity here, so in this case it better to call if you are holding A or K of heart

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

So unlikely to see any A9o A6o 69o, not even Boardwalk suited as well

V likely hand are 66 99 who worry to see a turn or A6s A9s who also worry to see a turn

Possible semi-bluff are 78h, A4h to A8h and maybe JTh.

You might also get freeroll if V have AK with heart too

Yep, I agree with your assessment of canceling out those hands, they were my exact thoughts, hence I narrowed it down specifically to and 99 combos for hands that had me beat. (since I'm holding )
I remember also mentally cancelling out 66 combos, considering it was an abnormally big preflop raise. (looking back, I might have dismissed them too quickly too)

**Forgot to mention, I had noticed she had took a while to make the call, therefore I actually put her down as a relatively weak hand compared to mine.
(I was thinking AQs)


@NotRealNameNoSir

When a solid player gets lucky on me like this, I just want to reassess what I did to enable that luck.

Yes sir, that's why I figured I'll post this hand here and gather people's thoughts.
I've enjoyed being a student of the game!

 

[upNdown]

Just looking at the title of this, I said “tournament - definitely fold, cash - never fold.” After reading the post, I say the same. But I’ll add this:
1) I’m still not sure if this is a tournament or a cash game.
2) never “check for deception” when its 5-handed postflop

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

Beginner question: isn’t holding the worse to call with, because it has removal to their pair plus flush draw type semi bluffs that were ahead of?

Aha!
I've actually nv thought it like this before. Interesting take

Atm tho, I'd still be inclined to @LeLe 's train of thought on denying villain's FD equity.
Less chance of them hitting their flush if im holding one. Am i interpreting this right?

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

2) never “check for deception” when its 5-handed postflop

I had the same thoughts when thinking how else I could have played it better.

this play is definitely not my usual. (normally quick C-bet here)
Was in fact trying something I had read in a book the day before.
Typical case of right intentions, wrong execution

 

[Pinball]

How much have you had behind after the shove of the villain. If stakes are equal, I wouldnt call with top pair top kicker for 89 BB.

 

[JMC9389]

Just looking at the title of this, I said “tournament - definitely fold, cash - never fold. After reading the post, I say the same. But I’ll add this:
1) I’m still not sure if this is a tournament or a cash game.
2) never “check for deception” when its 5-handed postflop

That's the only thing I didn't like. Hero preflop raises large. Not a chance I'm not leading here. The eventual outcome ends up the same but that gives license to someone in position to seize control of the hand. Out of position you want to dictate the pace and exercise pot control where you can, especially multiway.

I'm about as nitty as they come but I'm surprised about how many so far are saying fold to the jam. Hero isn't pot committed but is getting a great price. They need to call off 87 BB's to win 200ish. With this, Hero needs to be right only 40% of the time to have the correct odds to call. In a heads up scenario, hero is losing a lot of equity by folding and is something that can be exploited by the trained eye in future hands.

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

I'm about as nitty as they come but I'm surprised about how many so far are saying fold to the jam. Hero isn't pot committed but is getting a great price. They need to call off 87 BB's to win 200ish. With this, Hero needs to be right only 40% of the time to have the correct odds to call. In a heads up scenario, hero is losing a lot of equity by folding and is something that can be exploited by the trained eye in future hands.

I'm glad you mentioned this.
Had mentioned above that I've seen villain choose spots to shove big with air, stealing the pot successfully

Spoiler: Decision

That played a part in my decision to ultimately rejam and look her up.

Not that many combos that I lose to, plus in future she might think twice about making a play if she sees that Im willing to call her shoves with jus top pair

That's the only thing I didn't like. Hero preflop raises large. Not a chance I'm not leading here. The eventual outcome ends up the same but that gives license to someone in position to seize control of the hand. Out of position you want to dictate the pace and exercise pot control where you can, especially multiway.

Original plan was to check-raise to show strength and get villain to fold her AX hands.
Agree on the dictating pace part, therefore I thought I was gonna regain it with a check-raise

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

That's the only thing I didn't like. Hero preflop raises large. Not a chance I'm not leading here. The eventual outcome ends up the same but that gives license to someone in position to seize control of the hand. Out of position you want to dictate the pace and exercise pot control where you can, especially multiway.

Original plan was to check-raise to show strength and get villain to fold her AX hands.
Agree on the dictating pace part, therefore I thought I was gonna regain it with a check-raise

 

[LeLe]

Hero isn't pot committed but is getting a great price. They need to call off 87 BB's to win 200ish. With this, Hero needs to be right only 40% of the time to have the correct odds to call.

He not getting enough equity (40%) here even if he only need 80+ to call to win 200ish.

Jamming into 4 other person is super nutted in most case (90+%), unless the V is a whale or maniac

Just a clearer pic vs the most possible hands

- Vs a Set (8 combo)

-Vs 2 Pairs (4 suited combo + 4 unsuited combo)

Vs 78h (1 combo)

-Ax h (6 combish)

-AK with one heart (6 combo)

-Suited Heart Boardwalk (8 combo)

 

[JMC9389]

He not getting enough equity (40%) here even if he only need 80+ to call to win 200ish.

Jamming into 4 other person is super nutted in most case (90+%), unless the V is a whale or maniac

Just a clearer pic vs the most possible hands

- Vs a Set (8 combo)
View attachment 1298796

-Vs 2 Pairs (4 suited combo + 4 unsuited combo)
View attachment 1298798

Vs 78h (1 combo)
View attachment 1298797

-Ax h (6 combish)
View attachment 1298795

-AK with one heart (6 combo)
View attachment 1298793

-Suited Heart Boardwalk (8 combo)
View attachment 1298794

Reads on villains aside, the hands I'm most expecting to see do this are ones that are strong but vulnerable. Sets I suppose qualify, but in position, this is a move to get stronger hands to fold to me. Flush and straight draws, two pair combos, and hands like AK, AQ, AJ, and A10 with the Ace of hearts. Hero is ahead of any kind of draws and has lots of outs to improve against weak two pair hands.

I understand what you're saying, but if you're folding top top here, hero is ripe to be exploited. @upNdown brought up a great point. In a cash game, I'm calling this off all day. In a tournament in which I couldn't rebuy and we're on the bubble or if in the money with ICM implications, I could be talked into a groan fold depending on my read of the villain.

 

[bernielomax]

Reads on villains aside, the hands I'm most expecting to see do this are ones that are strong but vulnerable. Sets I suppose qualify, but in position, this is a move to get stronger hands to fold to me. Flush and straight draws, two pair combos, and hands like AK, AQ, AJ, and A10 with the Ace of hearts. Hero is ahead of any kind of draws and has lots of outs to improve against weak two pair hands.

I understand what you're saying, but if you're folding top top here, hero is ripe to be exploited. @upNdown brought up a great point. In a cash game, I'm calling this off all day. In a tournament in which I couldn't rebuy and we're on the bubble or if in the money with ICM implications, I could be talked into a groan fold depending on my read of the villain.

How is hero ripe for being exploited if they fold? Hero checked the flop. To me the hero checking the flop indicates they just don’t like the Ace and may have something like KK or QQ.

 

[JMC9389]

How is hero ripe for being exploited if they fold? Hero checked the flop. To me the hero checking the flop indicates they just don’t like the Ace and may have something like KK or QQ.

What exactly are you playing here if you're folding a strong ace? My point is thay you're right enough of times to call and be profitable in this scenario.

 

[upNdown]

Reads on villains aside, the hands I'm most expecting to see do this are ones that are strong but vulnerable. Sets I suppose qualify, but in position, this is a move to get stronger hands to fold to me. Flush and straight draws, two pair combos, and hands like AK, AQ, AJ, and A10 with the Ace of hearts.

That’s my take too.
And frankly I don’t want to hear anything about solvers or odds or anything because a 9bb raise pre resulted in going five-way to the flop - this is a dumb game. No offense intended; my home game plays pretty dumb sometimes too.

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

How is hero ripe for being exploited if they fold? Hero checked the flop. To me the hero checking the flop indicates they just don’t like the Ace and may have something like KK or QQ.

I think he means something along the lines of being pushed around on other hands.
if they know hero is folding top top to shoves, others can exploit by shoving with even their bad hands

 

[bernielomax]

I think he means something along the lines of being pushed around on other hands.
if they know hero is folding top top to shoves, others can exploit by shoving with even their bad hands

That’s exactly what I am saying.

Villain does not know hero is folding Top Top. For all they know you could be folding a premium hand like KK, QQ, JJ to an ace on the board.

 

[TAG_Cowboys]

That’s my take too.
And frankly I don’t want to hear anything about solvers or odds or anything because a 9bb raise pre resulted in going five-way to the flop - this is a dumb game. No offense intended; my home game plays pretty dumb sometimes too.

None taken.

Some of them did reveal their hands
JJ
KQs
QQ

Was jus this one strange round with the weaker hands supposedly getting valued in as it went down to the button ( I think he had JJ), surprised no 3bet there.

 

[JMC9389]

That’s exactly what I am saying.

Villain does not know hero is folding Top Top. For all they know you could be folding a premium hand like KK, QQ, JJ to an ace on the board.

Which in itself is also exploitable. That's what I'm trying to say but I just couldn't get the words right! I mean yeah, KK, QQ, JJ, and 10's are folding correctly five ways. Someone is going to have an ace. But in heads up and 3 ways scenarios, villains are going to pick up that hero is skittish, even with premiums.

 

[bmacpoker]

I think theoretically it's a call, but I'm putting myself in the situation in the context of my home games.

I don't see anyone jamming like that unless they have it. As I read your post, my mind screamed they have a set, but my poker theory brain said you have to call. In my own games, I'm probably folding. I just don't see a lot of players open shove like that, maybe they check-jam either to protect two pair or get it in with a combo draw. Just feels like a polarizing bet to target your exact holdings.

 

[JustinInMN]

Haven't looked at the spoiler.

Preflop:
Hero : in UTG
Open-bet 9 BB

4 callers: UTG +1 , CO , HJ, BTN

I was about to say why 9BB, but if you are getting 4 callers, it can't be all bad.

Flop:


Hero: Checks for deception

• UTG +1 checks
• CO jams 86 BB all in
• Folds to Hero

There is zero reason to check for deception in a 5 way pot when you were the preflop aggressor. I absolutely would be continuing with probably a 3/4 to full pot size bet in a 5 handed pot where we hit our flop. Don't risk a check through here when you can certainly get value from lesser aces and flush draws.

That being said, as played, I think hero may be trapped into call since having checked and underrepresenting the hand. Cutoff can just be taking a shot here with a flush draw or a lesser ace. a "monster" doesn't make much sense at villain's sizing unless this player really wants to shut down the flush draw. Plus you have this data point.

- Villain is a solid player who mixes up her plays, have seen her jam all-in with air in previous sessions

I don't believe a solid player is doing this with a set. I think there needs to be a countermeasure against someone that will mix it up. Again, I think hero underreped his holding and may have to respond with a call, or will be exploited by this type of villain.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I'm about as nitty as they come

I don't believe this if you're calling an 87bb shove into 4 people and a 36bb pot with top pair! (said with love, your analysis is always appreciated)

I see both sides but I think hero's being exploited hard; if we're doubling the normal open out of position with a hand we don't actually want to play people can smell that; we don't have AA or KK, we have JJ/AK/AQ/maaaybe AJ/TT? Ace high flop comes, a shove into four people screams strength if you know you're probably getting called by top pair. Especially if these people play cash games on a regular basis, they've seen hero call off top pair before, I doubt she's pulling something she thinks won't work. She's seen him bet more than normal and show the hand at some point, win or lose.

I keep coming back to 4 callers after betting 9BB and thinking there's got to be reads from the opponent's on hero. I know loose cash games are whatever, people just call, but even unconsciously they'll pick up habits like who bets bigger and who bets smaller. Especially if we're saying that villain is solid. We've seen her all-in with air like you said, sure, but what were stack sizes/positions/pre-flop/number of players? I know you're not going to remember all that every hand but this may be a different scenario. Even some of my crazier players won't open bluff shove when there's this many people in the hand.

If we're checking to set a trap, we have to call instantly and not think about it but I think we've agreed trapping is dangerous with this many players. I ascribe too much into reads/people because that's how I have fun playing poker so I'm definitely overvaluing that part of the analysis, but such is life.