Nasty River Spot: AK good vs Tight Player? (1 Viewer)

[Senzrock]

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.

Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Action on Hero - thoughts preflop?

 

[grebe]

3 bet. Against a very tight player, I am 3 bet folding to his 4 bet.
I make it 500. No need to go big here.

Not much thought here....AK is a destroyer, as we are rarely in bad shape (only two hands have us worse than 47%). Against a very tight player, he will let us know if we are up against one of those hands.

 

[Sunshine]

Fundamentally agree with @grebe but I'd go a little bigger. Trying to avoid both offering odds too tempting for even a tight player to fold and those odds being reasonably ok for him. I'm pretty (too) tight, and if I'm villain, that might be an auto-call.

 

[grebe]

Fundamentally agree with @grebe but I'd go a little bigger. Trying to avoid both offering odds too tempting for even a tight player to fold and those odds being reasonably ok for him. I'm pretty (too) tight, and if I'm villain, that might be an auto-call.

To be frank, I am not looking for a fold....a call is great. If he folds out his equity here to almost a min click...he made a mistake and I will happily stack his dead money. If not, I am looking to get value when I flop good and check it down against a tight player when I don't. Tight players are the easiest to play against.

 

[Senzrock]

To be frank, I am not looking for a fold....a call is great. If he folds out his equity here to almost a min click...he made a mistake and I will happily stack his dead money. If not, I am looking to get value when I flop good and check it down against a tight player when I don't. Tight players are the easiest to play against.

Agreed that tight players are easier to play against, but if we do choose to 3bet out of position, I think $500 is definitely too small. I will weigh in a bit more after others have a chance to chime in.

 

[jebu]

3! to ~900

 

[raynmanas]

Agreed that tight players are easier to play against, but if we do choose to 3bet out of position, I think $500 is definitely too small. I will weigh in a bit more after others have a chance to chime in.

agree with this. we need information, and 500 is too small to get anything meaningful. make it 900.

 

[grebe]

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

We are SB and everybody else has folded except for BB, who is tight and UTG2 who has opened for 3X. I think we can play small ball here and easily get head's up against EP opener without having to risk a large percentage of our stack here. Also, we MAY have to fold here, and we will be out of position. BB is folding almost for sure, right? I think a small bet gets us where we want to be.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Stacks are very deep, and we're out of position, so I want to go big here. I want to maximize Villain's mistake when he calls a 3! with a worse ace, and I want to put as much pressure as possible on small and medium pairs that are beating us but probably don't want to play a big pot unimproved (especially in the hands of a tight player).

I like something in the 3x to 4x range. @raynmanas's suggestion of 900 works for me. We're still giving him set-mining odds with those pairs, but we should figure a set out pretty quickly if he flats, then starts firing after the flop.

I'm probably folding to a 4! If this player is really tight and there's no history of 4-bet bluffs, we're crushed here - too nitty?

 

[jebu]

We are SB and everybody else has folded except for BB, who is tight and UTG2 who has opened for 3X. I think we can play small ball here and easily get head's up against EP opener without having to risk a large percentage of our stack here. Also, we MAY have to fold here, and we will be out of position. BB is folding almost for sure, right? I think a small bet gets us where we want to be.

You do have a point we can easily get HU with a smaller raise, we could probably get there with a call too. However a small bet gives V better odds to continue with more marginal pairs or worse drawing hands IP, which imo should be charged for appropriately.

If called, we do not really like our hand that much unless we catch an A or a K.
If we get 4! over a decent sized 3!, then I think it reasonably narrows down V range and we can consider folding.

Larger sizing on the 3! forces V to really give thought if his QJs is really worth fighting for, or if a pair of tens are any good.
The smaller we go here, the trashier the hands that are obliged to call, especially when IP.

 

[Senzrock]

Stacks are very deep, and we're out of position, so I want to go big here. I want to maximize Villain's mistake when he calls a 3! with a worse ace, and I want to put as much pressure as possible on small and medium pairs that are beating us but probably don't want to play a big pot unimproved (especially in the hands of a tight player).

I like something in the 3x to 4x range. @raynmanas's suggestion of 900 works for me. We're still giving him set-mining odds with those pairs, but we should figure a set out pretty quickly if he flats, then starts firing after the flop.

I'm probably folding to a 4! If this player is really tight and there's no history of 4-bet bluffs, we're crushed here - too nitty?

I have a similar instinct/read as several others here to 3bet but to potentially fold to a large 4bet. We can probably continue to a 4bet with AKs but unsuited OOP it probably becomes a tight fold against a tighter player imo.

 

[Senzrock]

I will finish up the preflop action in the next hour to keep it moving onto the flop action - I think folks have made some good points already

 

[Legend5555]

Over 200bb deep, easy 3bet to 750-900. Generally in tournaments, I tend to 3 bet slightly smaller than I would in cash. But we are quite deep, so probably fine to 3! to a normal cash game size.

If we get 4bet, the sizing will dictate whether we can or not. Unless this is a situation where this player is so tight he woulf only 4 bet AA, KK, and rarely QQ or AKs. Them it might be a fold almost no matter the sizing. (Though realistically, we aren't going to fold to a min click.)

 

[JMC9389]

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.

Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Action on Hero - thoughts preflop?

I will give my thoughts later tonight. I had a very similar hand this past weekend as well

 

[Senzrock]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

- Action on Hero?

 

[JMC9389]

Preflop I would three bet to 750 or 800 out of position. No need to go super large, as you're getting shoved in on by better hands and called by coin flips. I'm putting villain on a medium sized pair or a worse ace.

The flop hits hero's three betting range better than villain's initial raising range. I c-bet with about 1000 here.

 

[jr8719]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

- Action on Hero?

Ship it!

Joking, obviously.

I'm C-Betting here to rep a big overpair — and then potentially folding to any raise.

 

[grebe]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the l

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

- Action on Hero?

This should miss both of you. We should be able to remove AA and maybe KK from his range. QQ-TT would be my main thoughts, but he could have 88 or 77. We will have all the over pairs, none of the sets (do you 3bet 88 here?) No obvious draws.

I am betting small with all my hands. If I get a call, I am putting him on at least an over pair.

Bet: 1100 (as played....I would bet smaller with a smaller 3 bet preflop).

 

[JMC9389]

This should miss both of you. We should be able to remove AA and maybe KK from his range. QQ-TT would be my main thoughts, but he could have 88 or 77. We will have all the over pairs, none of the sets (do you 3bet 88 here?) No obvious draws.

I am betting small with all my hands. If I get a call, I am putting him on at least an over pair.

Bet: 1100 (as played....I would bet smaller with a smaller 3 bet preflop).

For hero, three betting with a middle pocket pair deep stacked and set mining is perfectly reasonable out of position.

Villain's reaction to a c-bet would be telling with what I'd put them on. I'd cut bait with any reraise and proceed with caution with any call.

 

[grebe]

For hero, three betting with a middle pocket pair deep stacked and set mining is perfectly reasonable out of position.

I agree, except I don't necessarily think 88 here is just set mining as it will hold up without improving often.

I am just wondering if OP specifically would 3 bet 88, and does the V know if 88 is in hero's range? If Villain doesn't think OP can have 88, it's worth noting that.

 

[Legend5555]

This flop is fairly neutral to slightly favoring you. You both have overpairs, but villain probably doesn't have AA or KK here almost ever, but you could. A tight villain probably just folds all non pairs here unless they have T9s or 56s (if he even raises those). We still have 6 outs against all the overpairs he can hold, and are ahead of a bunch of other stuff.

Probably don't need to bet very big here though. Probably 800-1k will get the job done most of the time. Fold to a raise. If called, check/fold any turn that isn't an A or K. Villain likely wouldn't be betting turn without an overpair or possible set of 7s or 8s when you check. Plus we just don't have anything.

If A or K comes on turn, fire again to try and get value from whatever sliver of AXs he might have peeled, and the occasional non believing over pair. If you get raised, fold. Most tight villains are not raising worse than two pair+ on turn. And we don't really get any extra value by checking since if he bets we are going to call down. And if he checks back, we still probably don't get much value on river. Plus we are supposed to have a lot of aces and kings, so we should be betting the turn if one comes.

If villain is capable of having JTs, T9s, or 56s, then we will have to evaluate things a little differently.

 

[Senzrock]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

Hero (SB): Bets $1041
Villain (MP): Raises to $2400

Very confusing spot - what do we think Villain is raising with here? Action on Hero?

 

[jebu]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

- Action on Hero?

I don't think in this situation this decently coordinated low flop is something we would want to c-bet on, and I think the flop favors the 3! callers range more than ours.
We would benefit from information + a free card.
I'd much rather X/C a decent bet by V than be forced to fold to a raise against our c-bet.

If we do bet, I'd go for around $2k.

 

[grebe]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

Hero (SB): Bets $1041
Villain (MP): Raises to $2400

Very confusing spot - what do we think Villain is raising with here? Action on Hero?

I know you don't....but this is an easy fold right here.

I snap fold it for effect.

Edit: what does V have? Us beat, that's what! Probably TT-QQ

 

[Legend5555]

It's gross, but what are you supposed to do really if his tight image is supposed to be correct? It's a small raise, but at best you have 6 outs and if you hit one you likely won't extract much more. Yet you could lose a lot more if he has one of the big hands like the sets, 78s. I can easily imagine this type of player raising 99-QQ to "find out where he's at." So, what's the likelihood you get villain to fold the overpairs whether you raise now or run some bluff on later streets assuming you miss the turn? That would be great and all, but it's just not necessary unless your read is REALLY on point.

It's annoying to 3 bet AK, whiff, Cbet, and get raised, but it happens. Fold and move on.

 

[MrCatPants]

I have pulled this min-raise move when I have a soul read that I'm facing c-bet with pure air. Is villain capable of that type of play?

 

[jebu]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

Hero (SB): Bets $1041
Villain (MP): Raises to $2400

Very confusing spot - what do we think Villain is raising with here? Action on Hero?

I'd say V is raising his 2 pair (78s)
Also T9s, some Ax hands.

His sets and pairs probably just like a call.

Here we like to fold.

 

[JMC9389]

I agree, except I don't necessarily think 88 here is just set mining as it will hold up without improving often.

I am just wondering if OP specifically would 3 bet 88, and does the V know if 88 is in hero's range? If Villain doesn't think OP can have 88, it's worth noting that.

If hero has the read that villain wouldn't raise in early position with anything less than Jack's because they're really tight, for example, the flop definitely favors hero. It's highly dependent on the player and their read on them.

I'd be a little more concerned if villain opened with a bit wider of a range rather than flatting a middle pair, but I think AK is still ahead here a good part of the time.

 

[JMC9389]

BACK TO THE ACTION -

Context:

We are playing in our weekly $40 rebuy tournament that runs Wednesday nights. Two tables, we have all 15 players in still, now nearing the end of the one-hour rebuy period. Generally play is fairly loose during the rebuy period, as are probably most of the rebuy tournaments you all play for friendly stakes. To give a sense of the payouts, 1st: $510, 2nd: $280, 3rd: 170. There is also a points structure for the league.

Hand: 8-handed table, blinds at: 40/80 with a $10 Ante.


Action:

UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Folds
Villain (Tight Player): Raises to 240 ($23,015)
HJ: Folds
CO: Folds
BTN: Folds
SB Hero: ($18,431)
BB: Tight Player ($19,652)

Hero raises to $1100 (out of position, with a hand like AK, I tend to lean on going larger rather than smaller. I don't mind having to fold to a large 4bet here if I really need to. Anything less than 800 here I think is a mistake as we give good odds to any two suited connectors and have to play out of position. I want to make villain pay here for dominated Ax and maybe force him to fold a few small pairs that are ahead of us.

BB: folds
Villain: Calls $1100

Flop ($2360 in the middle):

Hero (SB): Bets $1041
Villain (MP): Raises to $2400

Very confusing spot - what do we think Villain is raising with here? Action on Hero?

Fold. As played, villain flopped a set or has an overpair that hero is blocking, but is behind.

 

[jr8719]

I know you don't....but this is an easy fold right here.

I snap fold it for effect.

Edit: what does V have? Us beat, that's what! Probably TT-QQ

Simple as this, really — especially if the player is tight.