AK in middle position with a big stack (1 Viewer)

[JMC9389]

Here's what I thought was an interesting spot I ran into last night.

Game is a 14 player two table tournament with T10000 starting stacks with unlimited rebuys for the first two hours of play. Game tonight is a little more splashy than usual with four rebuys already when there's usually only 2 or 3 before the rebuy period ends. Ended up at 8 rebuys for this one, so stacks were a little bit bigger than normal.

At the time of this hand in level 5 with 150/300 blinds, about 30 minutes away from rebuys ending. Hero is in MP, having just rebought about 20 minutes earlier. Two villains here are UTG ang UTG + 1. Won't give any specific reads since both players post here, but generally, both are on the tight aggressive side. Table is 7 handed.

Stack sizes are below:

UTG: About 24k (hero doubled him up an orbit earlier losing with Jack's to this villain's AK)

UTG + 1: short stack, about 4k left. Rebought once already and is on his second bullet.

Hero: about 22k having just doubled up on a runner runner flush over aces via the button player this hand.

Cutoff has about 21 k.

Button is very short at aboit 3k.

SB and BB are at about starting stack, 10k plus or minus 1k.

Action goes as following; UTG min raises to 600, UTG shoves his small stack.

Hero looks down at .

What do we do here?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Is shoving that bad? Thoughts would be me hoping someone else thinks Im shoving light to isolate and calls with a wider range.

Other option is call/call if someone else tries the same shenanigans, but I don't like that as much with AK.

 

[Gunnar]

Is shoving that bad? Thoughts would be me hoping someone else thinks Im shoving light to isolate and calls with a wider range.

Other option is call/call if someone else tries the same shenanigans, but I don't like that as much with AK.

Shoving is quite normal here I would say. A call here will result in UTG maybe showing into us giving us a hard time.

 

[MichaelBubly]

Initial instinct is to just go for the shove. Calling feels terrible and stacks aren't deep enough to 3-bet. Probably just ship it and worst case you can rebuy.

Closer to the bubble I could probably lay this down here sometimes and avoid facing off against the deep stack, but shoving gets a ton of hands to fold so if might just make sense there too.

 

[JMC9389]

Will bump this one more time for the morning crowd before I share what ended up happening.

 

[grebe]

You aren't deep. Shove is pretty standard here.

 

[JMC9389]

You aren't deep. Shove is pretty standard here.

Hero has 73 big blinds. I understand what you're saying, but that's pretty deep at this stage of the game.

 

[mipevi]

I don’t mind just calling, as only CO or UTG shoving would cause you to potentially fold. But I’d flat with AA here sometimes as well.

 

[KHarp1]

Depends, are you wanting/willing to rebuy again? I might would consider a raise, that may isolate. If there is a call or re-raise you can get away from it. Still have deep enough stack to be in it.

 

[Gunnar]

I don’t mind just calling, as only CO or UTG shoving would cause you to potentially fold. But I’d flat with AA here sometimes as well.

If you are playing UTG here and Hero flats, what hands are you shoving with?

If hero Shoves we should not get a call unless UTG is really strong

If we flat and UTG shoves he can have AA, KK, AKs, AKo, even AQs or QQ might shove over us.

Im having a hard time entering this into solvers as a Call here is just not an option...

If we call it is just because we are afraid that UTG has AA or KK and that is just scared poker and very unlucky. I Would shove this and hopefully we get a call from AQs, AQo or AKo or some hard folds, if UTG has AA or KK then we still made the right move and just got unlucky.

 

[jcjc]

I'd just call if rebuy is not an option.

 

[mipevi]

If you are playing UTG here and Hero flats, what hands are you shoving with?

That depends. Does everyone have their solvers open at the table? Rhetorical question.

If we call it is just because we are afraid that UTG has AA or KK and that is just scared poker and very unlucky.

Of course not, I don’t play scared poker. Same reason why I would flat AA here sometimes, to induce. Also I never said shoving is wrong, because it’s not, I just don’t mind flatting if hero has a reason to do so.

 

[Gunnar]

That depends. Does everyone have their solvers open at the table? Rhetorical question.


Of course not, I don’t play scared poker. Same reason why I would flat AA here sometimes, to induce. Also I never said shoving is wrong, because it’s not, I just don’t mind flatting if hero has a reason to do so.

Two players that are “both are on the tight aggressive side” and are members of PCF. We can assume their range is quite closed off here.

But ofcourse not everyone plays like solvers thank god. But when playing against tight players with some experience it is good to have this behind the ear

I think flat here with AA is a great play on the other hand

 

[mipevi]

The thing is I doubt shoving will get many calls from AQ, whereas by flatting someone might be tempted to go with it and our AK gains value, just like AA would. But discussing hands online is never really productive, mostly just for shits and giggles or bad beat stories…

 

[kmccormick100]

100% shoving trying to isolate the short stack all in. A flat call is just incentivizing the UTG or cutoff to do the same and take down your additional 4k in free money.

 

[grebe]

Hero has 73 big blinds. I understand what you're saying, but that's pretty deep at this stage of the game.

It's pretty deep for a tournament, I'll have you that.

It's not what people call "deep stack poker"

How risk averse are you? You want to win, or last for a while?

AK is much more powerful than the average player gives it credit.... Especially when you add dead money to the pot. Lots of people would actually fold here not knowing how many chips they are giving up by going so because they want to "protect their stack".

We have no reason the think anyone is super strong here. This is an easy spot, to be honest. Shove.

 

[dpeks13]

 

[GetUrShineBox]

I'm either shipping it or wait for it......folding here. Either shove and get your rebuy money on the table or fold and pretend you never got dealt AK.
Just calling here gets the original raiser to call with maybe 8's - J's or JQ sooted if he's one of those "Well now I'm priced in and can't fold" kinda guys.

Then the flop comes J or Q high, he bets and your pissed off. lol

 

[JMC9389]

I'll get right to it.

I folded the AK. My thinking is that UTG isn't raising light, even a min raise with two really small stacks to act behind. He won't be doing this with anything worse than AK itself or a pocket pair. I took this as a move to try to get a short stack to shove and get a quick double. A fold here I think has merit because there is concern about the four players behind, including another short stack, one that may have revenge mode activated against me here after taking him to value town just a few hands prior. My thinking is that at least one of the UTG players has a pocket pair, which even heads up I'm flipping against. Against the 4k all in, no big deal, I have still a pretty large stack. A shove over the top may get UTG's 5's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 9's, and maybe even 10's and Jacks to fold. That min raise out of position just looked super strong to me.

In my mind, this was a jam over the top to isolate or a fold. Calling was never an option as this prices in other marginal hands that can outflop AK. Playing AK multiways is just never a good time.

I think if the stacks were deeper and I face another shove, it's fine to get away from, but if the intention is just to fold to any further aggression, that's a waste of 4k. Even it UTG just calls the jam, I'm going to hate any flop without an ace or king.

If I was the one with 10k or less, this is a pretty easy jam, but relative to my stack size and the blinds at the time, I just didn't love the situation, so I got out of the way.

Flop ended up ace high and I would've tripled up as UTG ended up calling the all in with and stacked UTG + 1 with

 

[Gunnar]

I'll get right to it.

I folded the AK. My thinking is that UTG isn't raising light, even a min raise with two really small stacks to act behind. He won't be doing this with anything worse than AK itself or a pocket pair. I took this as a move to try to get a short stack to shove and get a quick double. A fold here I think has merit because there is concern about the four players behind, including another short stack, one that may have revenge mode activated against me here after taking him to value town just a few hands prior. My thinking is that at least one of the UTG players has a pocket pair, which even heads up I'm flipping against. Against the 4k all in, no big deal, I have still a pretty large stack. A shove over the top may get UTG's 5's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 9's, and maybe even 10's and Jacks to fold. That min raise out of position just looked super strong to me.

In my mind, this was a jam over the top to isolate or a fold. Calling was never an option as this prices in other marginal hands that can outflop AK. Playing AK multiways is just never a good time.

I think if the stacks were deeper and I face another shove, it's fine to get away from, but if the intention is just to fold to any further aggression, that's a waste of 4k. Even it UTG just calls the jam, I'm going to hate any flop without an ace or king.

If I was the one with 10k or less, this is a pretty easy jam, but relative to my stack size and the blinds at the time, I just didn't love the situation, so I got out of the way.

Flop ended up ace high and I would've tripled up as UTG ended up calling the all in with and stacked UTG + 1 with

Fold here is not wrong here but a Shove is correct more often. So how did you end the tournament

 

[JMC9389]

Fold here is not wrong here but a Shove is correct more often. So how did you end the tournament

Chopped the money three ways but won it on the playout for POTY standings

 

[Gunnar]

Chopped the money three ways but won it on the playout for POTY standings

Well done!

 

[MichaelBubly]

I'll get right to it.

I folded the AK. My thinking is that UTG isn't raising light, even a min raise with two really small stacks to act behind. He won't be doing this with anything worse than AK itself or a pocket pair. I took this as a move to try to get a short stack to shove and get a quick double. A fold here I think has merit because there is concern about the four players behind, including another short stack, one that may have revenge mode activated against me here after taking him to value town just a few hands prior. My thinking is that at least one of the UTG players has a pocket pair, which even heads up I'm flipping against. Against the 4k all in, no big deal, I have still a pretty large stack. A shove over the top may get UTG's 5's, 6's, 7's, 8's, 9's, and maybe even 10's and Jacks to fold. That min raise out of position just looked super strong to me.

In my mind, this was a jam over the top to isolate or a fold. Calling was never an option as this prices in other marginal hands that can outflop AK. Playing AK multiways is just never a good time.

I think if the stacks were deeper and I face another shove, it's fine to get away from, but if the intention is just to fold to any further aggression, that's a waste of 4k. Even it UTG just calls the jam, I'm going to hate any flop without an ace or king.

If I was the one with 10k or less, this is a pretty easy jam, but relative to my stack size and the blinds at the time, I just didn't love the situation, so I got out of the way.

Flop ended up ace high and I would've tripled up as UTG ended up calling the all in with and stacked UTG + 1 with

I don't hate folding here. My thoughts on it though are that a min-raise out of position from a deep stack is still quite a bit wider than just AK or pocket pairs.

KQ, AQ, AJ, A10, KJs, K10s, A5s, Pocket Pairs (likely excluding 2s - 4s)and suited connectors (109,J10,QJ).

Obviously, he'll also have AKs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ which will all almost certainly call a shove, but you block the hands that you're screwed by.

I think realistically shoving is far and away the best option considering you aren't near the money and can still re-enter. But that would be adjusted closer to the bubble depending on stack depths.

Can also flat here which I think might play better than you think. It's quite strong cold calling a 12BB jam after an EP open. Downsides are that some hands you're either ahead of flipping against could jam from EP to iso and that won't be a nice spot.

Looking at the Hands, it's pretty likely you jam and get AQo to fold out. Call and likely see the ace high flop that you'll get some value from, but that's a results-based perspective that isn't very useful)

But congrats on cashing! This is really a fringe spot and I don't think you can really make a terrible choice. It did end up working out at the end.

 

[Talrem]

If I read the setup correctly cutoff is next to act after hero and has a stack on par with hero. If hero shoves and cutoff has a hand to call with that would be a mess, but shoving would possibly push cutoff out and isolate.
Calling the 4k shove/raise might get a call from cutoff and then a big-stack battle begins… or the cutoff might just fold a weak/marginal hand if hero gets involved.

I chose to call, but would also manage a shove if I felt it.

 

[detroitdad]

All in. Then stand up and get rebuy money out