Legit gripes or overly sensitive on my part? (1 Viewer)

[Samuel]

7 handed today with regular group. Started off .50/$1 and then switched to $1/1 (we usually play $1/2) - dealers choice - hold em, PLO8, pineapple omaha, double board bomb pot pineapple hold em and DBBPPomaha too, etc. I ended up getting coolered really really Really bad multiple times and lost $400 (which is why I'm asking if it's just me being tilted - and no, I'm not a sore loser by any means).

Villain is one of my oldest friends (from high school) who also does little things that irritate me from time to time, poker and non-poker related. Today, I was dealing 5 cards to everyone (bomb pot) and he starts making change by reaching across the table and picking up chips from other players' (plural) antes ($5 from everyone, temporarily placed in front of each player). So I end up hitting his hand and a card flips up, screwing up the deal. About 30 min later, it happens again, same exact thing. So now I'm a little annoyed and I tell him, Dude, that's twice! He says he's just making change and he saw there was plenty of change in front of everyone. So I tell him that he could have just gotten change from the guy next to him and just put $5 in front of him instead of reaching all around and across the middle of the table...

Last hand of the night, I'm heads up and facing a bet from another buddy that's going to put me all in for my last $135 (playing BigO). Villian (the one mentioned above, not the one who was putting me all in) has sorted the pot into stacks by denomination and split everything in half as well - that part I don't mind but he's put all the chips in front of himself and is shuffling the two small stacks of $25's. I say, Can you stop that, I'd like to see how much there is in the pot. He keeps shuffling and says, It's like 180-something. I say Ok, can you stop shuffling those chips, I'd like to see. He repeats it's like 180-something but doesn't stop shuffling. So then I'm annoyed and say, Dude, stop shuffling the POT, shuffle your own chips, not the chips in the pot. So he finally stops and makes some comment about me going in or not and then I'm distracted now and go in stupidly and get swept... SMH...

So, for the first situations, I figure I could have waited for everyone to ante before dealing (but I, and all the rest of us, were just trying to keep the game moving along (and our games are like that))...

For the second one, have any of you ever seen a player shuffling chips In The Pot??? And to clarify, he had already folded a street or two ago AND he had plenty of chips of his own he could have shuffled...

Maybe I'm just venting right now... :\

 

[JMC9389]

You were on a bad run and your friend is out of line for shuffling chips actively in the pot (WTF, never seen or heard of anyone doing this ever). Sounds like as a friend, he was trying to get out of a rise out of you while you were steaming and it worked. All of this can be true.

I'm sorry about the tough run of cards. I ran into really cold decks a week ago too.

 

[wickedwonka121]

No one touches the pot but the dealer. In any situation where money is involved, everyone must respect the rules. The first thought I have when someone is handling chips that aren't theirs is they are cheating. Reaching across the table while cards are being dealt is also his fault. You could have waited, we wait for blinds. But if cards are moving, the hands need to get out of the way.

 

[glynn]

Where is the host? That guy would have gotten exactly one warning about shuffling the pot in my game. I don't care if he was trying to get a rise out of you — there are other concerned parties. He doesn't belong there.

Making change from the antes is bad enough.

 

[Samuel]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I was hosting today and this was at the very end of the session. FWIW, this is the only time I've ever seen anyone, including the villain, shuffle chips in the pot. I think he was doing it absent mindedly but what really annoyed me was that he didn't stop right away and he didn't apologize for it (especially if he was doing it by mistake - maybe he didn't want to admit doing something that dumb?), (AND I got swept... lol). It seems like our game has been getting a little sloppy and based on your guys' replies, it would be a good idea to tighten things up again (e.g. waiting for all the blinds and/or antes before dealing, etc). Thanks!

 

[MeridianFC]

There is no reason for shuffling the pot even if one is the dealer. There is no reason to touch other people's chips. You ask them to make change, you give them your big chip, they give you the change.

WTF is up with the Handsy McGrabby?

 

[GetUrShineBox]

F this guy, you have every right to tell him to stop

 

[louBdub]

Guy making change across the table, and during a deal…. Wrong

Guy shuffling the chips in the pot….. Fuck no, wrong

Are you the host? If so, these yahoos are not respecting the house & host. Simple.

 

[Frogzilla]

Doing things that make it a little harder to deal is normal

Shuffling the pot is wild. Continuing shuffling after being asked to stop is nuts

 

[RowlettTexasChipGuy]

relax, not a big deal, just let it go and enjoy your home game

 

[ThrowBack]

“Dude I’m not trying to be rude, but you’re literally playing with stacks of other people’s money.”

 

[Frogzilla]

Also, if he’s that unaware, he’s giving off countless reliable tells. When he’s playing you must stack him constantly. The rules of poker in fact demand that you stack him constantly, anything else is “soft play”.

And months from now, after you’ve stacked him over and over again, incessantly, he will be adjusting and trying to read about blockers, and holding naked Ace of the flush suit when his low bricked but flush got in. He will bluff as he should but never pick up that hey he basically tells you his hand every street. And he will beg you, “ @Samuel my world is falling apart, food has lost all flavor, im seeing a therapist from all these stackings, and we’ve been friends since high school, please stop stacking me.” At that point you have some options, but I’d mutter “it’s like 180-something” and stack him again.

 

[merkong]

Nobody should be touching chips in the pot just to get their shuffle on…

WTF are they thinking?

 

[JustinInMN]

Villain is one of my oldest friends (from high school) who also does little things that irritate me from time to time, poker and non-poker related. Today, I was dealing 5 cards to everyone (bomb pot) and he starts making change by reaching across the table and picking up chips from other players' (plural) antes ($5 from everyone, temporarily placed in front of each player). So I end up hitting his hand and a card flips up, screwing up the deal. About 30 min later, it happens again, same exact thing. So now I'm a little annoyed and I tell him, Dude, that's twice! He says he's just making change and he saw there was plenty of change in front of everyone. So I tell him that he could have just gotten change from the guy next to him and just put $5 in front of him instead of reaching all around and across the middle of the table...

If the chips are not scooped he should be touching no one's chips other than his own. Once the chips are scooped if he wants to ask for change from the pot in a way that everyone understand what he's doing, that is probably okay. Prefer the dealer handle that transaction. But no way should he be making change from chips that are in front of other players.

Last hand of the night, I'm heads up and facing a bet from another buddy that's going to put me all in for my last $135 (playing BigO). Villian (the one mentioned above, not the one who was putting me all in) has sorted the pot into stacks by denomination and split everything in half as well - that part I don't mind but he's put all the chips in front of himself and is shuffling the two small stacks of $25's. I say, Can you stop that, I'd like to see how much there is in the pot. He keeps shuffling and says, It's like 180-something. I say Ok, can you stop shuffling those chips, I'd like to see. He repeats it's like 180-something but doesn't stop shuffling. So then I'm annoyed and say, Dude, stop shuffling the POT, shuffle your own chips, not the chips in the pot. So he finally stops and makes some comment about me going in or not and then I'm distracted now and go in stupidly and get swept... SMH...

At this stage in the hand no one should be handling chips in the pot, period, not even the dealer*. Once the showdown is completed the dealer can scoop the losing bets and push the pot to the winner. No one else has a legit reason for handling the pot.

Whenever I have to correct points of etiquette I ALWAYS invoke that it's for the benefit of the whole game versus the individual players bad behavior.

*I did note below a dealer could be stacking and splitting the pot in a split pot game after the final cards are dealt. That practice is widely accepted. After that though, hands out of the middle.

 

[merkong]

Whenever I have to correct points of etiquette I ALWAYS invoke that it's for the benefit of the whole game versus the individual players bad behavior.

Very valid point because these types of corrections, while running in streaks, will always exist.

 

[Tallguy]

Yeah, someone playing around with the pot chips would tilt me too. That’s a big no no.

 

[Samuel]

Thank You Gentlemen!!

 

[Lord_Foldemort]

I think you are right to be frustrated! Ultimately, as the house, what you say goes. Breaches of etiquette happen, but knowingly continuing after being called out is a dick move. Invites to poker night are a privilege, not a right.

 

[DuckFat]

Both problems solved the same rule. There is only one dealer.
People anxious over change annoys me to no end. Alternative solution - ante $5 and get rid of $1's, no change necessary.

The guy shuffling the pot is out of line and I'm surprised no one else said anything. On top of that he already folded, wtf is wrong with this idiot, he is risking a ban.

On a side note. Is your vision ok? There was at most 7 $25 chips which is very easy to see and count regardless of it being actively shuffled.

You were well within your right to get a ruler and whack their hands

 

[Nine_high]

I have a pretty strict rule of no finger fucking the pot. In another game I played in, there was a really fidgety guy who did stuff like this all the time. At one point we were coming out of the turn and someone realized and asked, "where's the pot??". Dude put it in his stack, probably inadvertently, but nevertheless....

Also no one should be making their own change from the pot... especially not reaching or taking live bets or blinds / antes. I make them get it from a neighbor on the side, or just over post and get change after action closes.

The first is a no brainier. The second one is much harder to break in my experience, because people who don't know any better think they are actually helping to speed things along. But what they are doing is sowing confusion. I love when someone does this and then a couple raises come along, and I challenge them to unfuck the situation which they of course can't do. It becomes a good learning experience and those tend to stick a lot better than being scolded for reasons they can't understand.

Edit to add: legit gripes. But as host it's on you to establish and enforce these rules.

 

[Bacon Dad]

I challenge them to unfuck the situation

Yep. Gotta steal this one. Well said!

 

[Taghkanic]

Even sorting the pot is a no-no, right? Let alone shuffling

 

[MeridianFC]

I have a pretty strict rule of no finger fucking the pot.

I challenge them to unfuck the situation which they of course can't do.

You sir are a language master of the first water.

 

[Nine_high]

Even sorting the pot is a no-no, right? Let alone shuffling

In pot limit games I do sort the pot.

In NL games if the dealer sorts the pot I knock it over

 

[JustinInMN]

Even sorting the pot is a no-no, right? Let alone shuffling

In a split pot game, it's usually accepted that the dealer do this to expedite pushing the pot after the final cards are dealt.

 

[Taghkanic]

In a split pot game, it's usually accepted that the dealer do this to expedite pushing the pot.

I play lots of PLO8 and some other split pot games. But generally in the venues I play, the dealer (whether hired or self-dealt) does not mess with the chips while there is still significant action.

If you have someone who is good at doing this when the hand is over, it really isn’t much of a timesink, especially compared to all the time lost from players tanking, not paying attention, etc. (And of course not all hands are split at all, some are scooped.)

Ideally you have a dealer and/or players who know the size of the pot without it being stacked (let alone split). But I understand some games are looser and people are impatient, sometimes about trivial things.

 

[JustinInMN]

I play lots of PLO8 and some other split pot games. But generally in the venues I play, the dealer (whether hired or self-dealt) does not mess with the chips while there is still significant action.

If you have someone who is good at doing this when the hand is over, it really isn’t much of a timesink, especially compared to all the time lost from players tanking, not paying attention, etc. (And of course not all hands are split at all, some are scooped.)

Ideally you have a dealer and/or players who know the size of the pot without it being stacked (let alone split). But I understand some games are looser and people are impatient, sometimes about trivial things.

I did just make a key edit, where I have played a dealer only does this after the final cards are dealt, not on every street.

 

[Samuel]

Quick follow up. Villain hosted last night. For the most part, everything went smoothly - no repeats of what I was griping about. One minor thing though (it's always something, lol), during one hand in which he had already folded, he decided to swap out 5 of his reds ($5) for a green ($25) that was in the pot (IIRC, he had like $375 or $475 in greens and wanted to make an even 4 or 5 hundred). I said (half-jokingly), Hey Man, you're not even in, you gotta earn that green! He said, Money's money, there's still the same amount in there. It didn't seem to bother anyone else at the table and he was hosting (and had provided food/drink) so I let it go...

@DuckFat - yeah, there were only a few greens that he was shuffling and yeah, my vision Is going bye bye too... I've always been nearsighted and I used to be able to wear contacts and do everything. Nowadays, contacts are too "strong" (even though I requested them slightly underpowered) for extended computer/paper work. And for up close stuff with contacts in, forget about it. So I pretty much wear my glasses all the time now - ok for computer/paperwork and I can take them off for up close stuff (too much of a PITA with contacts). And if I'm training/teaching on the mats, I just take them off and leave them off... sucks getting old!!

 

[Nine_high]

I play lots of PLO8 and some other split pot games. But generally in the venues I play, the dealer (whether hired or self-dealt) does not mess with the chips while there is still significant action.

If you have someone who is good at doing this when the hand is over, it really isn’t much of a timesink, especially compared to all the time lost from players tanking, not paying attention, etc. (And of course not all hands are split at all, some are scooped.)

I definitely wouldn't pre-split pots in split pot games. Chopping a pot in half is very quick generally, and as you mentioned not always necessary. And if it's going to be a mess (multiple side pots and some quartering etc) pre-splitting won't help anyway. I would only sort it if it was also a PL game.

Ideally you have a dealer and/or players who know the size of the pot without it being stacked (let alone split). But I understand some games are looser and people are impatient, sometimes about trivial things.

Sure. But in PL games, players are allowed to ask the size of the pot so they can figure out the max bet. And of course the dealer needs to know so they can enforce the max. Conversely in NL games the dealer is not supposed to tell a player the size of the pot, and is also supposed to keep it "messy" so as to obscure it's exact value, is my understanding.

My players are still getting used to PL and I find it's best the dealer (or just I) sort the pot right after turning over the next street. It takes a few seconds and doesn't interfere with any action. Then it's easy enough to just glance over and figure out how much is in there.

I guess I don't know if you're supposed to sort it in PL games, but I see no problem with doing it.

 

[Talrem]

I agree with most comments.
He’s wrong for reaching across the table to make change. Flip a chip to a player and they will pass a stack over.

He’s dead wrong for touching the pot! Nobody but the dealer touches the chips. No excuses, no exceptions - hands off! I wouldn’t trust my aged ancestor from The Dawn of Time itself to touch the pot! Even he would palm a chip or two!

He needs to be educated on the house rules and follow them or he can find another game to play in. One firm, final warning, then boot!