KK in a ST SNG (1 Viewer)

Steve Birrer

Steve Birrer

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Was playing in a home game the other night and watched and interesting hand so thought I would get y'alls thoughts.

Down to five players and three places are paid. Blinds are 10/20 (started at 1/2) and stacks are around 500.

UTG has :kd::kh: and raises to 50. UTG +1 calls and the remaining three players fold. So pot is 130.

Flop comes :as::9c::3h:.

UTG should do what?
 
As played, there is value in check calling or betting and folding if raised. I prefer the latter because check-calling doesn't put pressure on the other players. They may just bet their position and you get very little information. Betting out of position says you are strong. They may even believe you have an ace... They could even fold a weak ace! Depends on your table image...

Bet, but be cautious if called and be ready to fold if raised. If you have to fold, chalk it up to paying for information OOP.
 
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I don't really have a problem with the pf sizing when the game is this shallow. Everyone at 25 bigs.

I think bet-fold is a better line than check-call. Your re usually going to bet this flop when you hit an A, it's okay to mix in some bluffs too. I would do 30-50% pot here (whatever I would do with an ace I guess) and see what happens.
 
JustinInMN said:
I don't really have a problem with the pf sizing when the game is this shallow. Everyone at 25 bigs.

I think bet-fold is a better line than check-call. Your re usually going to bet this flop when you hit an A, it's okay to mix in some bluffs too. I would do 30-50% pot here (whatever I would do with an ace I guess) and see what happens.
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Not to tranform the thread into a back and forth, but this is why I don't favor the bet: I don't think we are folding an A. And to someone who called flop with something like TT, it might not be strong enough to call more than one street. If we check, not all A will bet, probably only the stronger ones. But we might get some bluff taking a stab. If Villain checks back, then I'm betting the turn.

I just don't think we need to bluff with KK there (not folding a better hand). Possibly missing value from a hand like TT but that hand might pay off a turn bet, or even bet the flop. Also, we don't fear ANY turn cards.

The one advantage to betting the flop is if we plan on running a multi barrel bluff to get an A to fold. Bt again, we don't necessarily need to do this with KK. We have a good value hand.

Yes, I agree with are betting most A (not all) but KK is too strong to bluff here IMO. A better candidate wold be some hands with back-door equity.

Just the way I'd look at this hand.

If betting KK, then I agree with you 100% with a smaller bet trying to get value from something other than an A.
 
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detroitdad said:
I bet 65 preflop, half pot on the flop
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Yup


As to check calling the flop vs leading out... If a preflop raiser UTG suddenly checks a flop (with an ace in the window), it telegraphs to me their hand. If you raise pre with an ace, you’re not likely to check an ace on the flop (unless you’re getting trappy with AA)? If I’m in that hand, and you check your KK on an A high flop, I’m pretty sure I’m going to make it difficult for you to continue. I like a C-Bet here (most of the time).
 
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What bets back at us if we check? A7+, 99+, 93 suited (maybe with position they calla PF raise) and obviously 33.

Any of those A9+, 99 and 33 are all going to raise us -- and beat us -- if we bet out. So we're left with TT-KK, 93, A7 and A8 that we can get value from. One of those hands ties us, 3 beat us and we beat the other three.

I don't see enough upside in checking for value. I prefer to take the pot now before the OOP choices become more difficult.

That's my thoughts, but one of the trademarks of The Pro™ is getting value in thin spots.
 
I'm only checking here if I'm check-raising (which I think is a bit foolish, but hey, it's a play).

I'm betting larger pre-flop, and leading out with a 1/2 to 2/3 pot size bet. Not turning control of the hand over to villain.
 
On a very dry board like this, I'm checking a good ace here often, so I'm also comfortable check-calling with KK and planning to check-fold the turn if I face aggression on 2 streets. I think we often get a stab at the flop by worse and don't see a barrel too frequently on the turn from hands that we beat. A c-bet isn't bad either since we're unlikely to get 3-bet on flops like this unless it's a set, but someone calling our c-bet could be an ace but also could be someone getting sticky and then we're in a place where we are either following through on the turn, or checking and leaving us open to a float. We're only going for one street here unless we improve and this isn't a board where giving a free card is too risky for us.
 
ChaosRock said:
Not to tranform the thread into a back and forth, but this is why I don't favor the bet: I don't think we are folding an A. And to someone who called flop with something like TT, it might not be strong enough to call more than one street. If we check, not all A will bet, probably only the stronger ones. But we might get some bluff taking a stab. If Villain checks back, then I'm betting the turn.

I just don't think we need to bluff with KK there (not folding a better hand). Possibly missing value from a hand like TT but that hand might pay off a turn bet, or even bet the flop. Also, we don't fear ANY turn cards.

The one advantage to betting the flop is if we plan on running a multi barrel bluff to get an A to fold. Bt again, we don't necessarily need to do this with KK. We have a good value hand.

Yes, I agree with are betting most A (not all) but KK is too strong to bluff here IMO. A better candidate wold be some hands with back-door equity.

Just the way I'd look at this hand.

If betting KK, then I agree with you 100% with a smaller bet trying to get value from something other than an A.
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power13 said:
On a very dry board like this, I'm checking a good ace here often, so I'm also comfortable check-calling with KK and planning to check-fold the turn if I face aggression on 2 streets. I think we often get a stab at the flop by worse and don't see a barrel too frequently on the turn from hands that we beat. A c-bet isn't bad either since we're unlikely to get 3-bet on flops like this unless it's a set, but someone calling our c-bet could be an ace but also could be someone getting sticky and then we're in a place where we are either following through on the turn, or checking and leaving us open to a float. We're only going for one street here unless we improve and this isn't a board where giving a free card is too risky for us.
Click to expand...

This is a not-very-solid part of my game. What is the plan for the turn after a flop check-call. I understand check, but then what. I understand it depends on the turn card and the amount that ge villain bets, but in general what is the plan?
 
I really do understand both lines and it really depends on overall strategy. I tend to like to c-bet when I am the aggressor, and I don't think I can reasonably do that with just aces. KK is going to be good a reasonable about of the time and we might get a street out of a 9 or other pairs, or we can fold out the air without having to guess an ace or not.

But there is merit in checking if we're willing to station, which probably means calling off the tournament at the river with the shallow stacks. There are opponents against which I would do this, but absent that information, I think bet-fold (or possibly bet -shove as bg mentioned) is a reasonable line.
 
Burke said:
This is a not-very-solid part of my game. What is the plan for the turn after a flop check-call. I understand check, but then what. I understand it depends on the turn card and the amount that ge villain bets, but in general what is the plan?
Click to expand...

For me, the turn plan would be mostly check-fold, but expecting to see a lot of check-backs. With 2 exceptions: obviously a king rolling off is great and then I'm mixing donks and check-raises. If it's an A I'm still checking but that's a pretty good card for us since it reduces the chances we're beat -- I think we'll see many check-backs of a 2nd ace, but I may call a smaller bet on the turn, especially if it puts a second club or heart on board (I will fold to a large bet though).

There are a lot of aces in villains range, but a lot of other stuff too, so I'm in general OK with calling one bet and relying that most of the time a villain is going to reveal their strength or weakness on the turn. And because I'd take a similar line with a big ace on the flop my call could still mean a strong hand.

By the way, this could all change based on player reads. This is a home tourney, so if I know villain is fit or fold, then I'm betting small on the flop and giving up often. If he's a big floater, I'm probably check-calling the turn more widely.
 
Oh and to clarify: my line above is assuming the villain bets to my check on the flop. To a check back, I would be betting pretty much everything except maybe a 9 or 3, definitely all high cards. Low cards are bets also unless villain looks really excited by it.
 
I pretty much agree 100% with @power13 ’s statements above. The only exception being I ‘might’ call a turn bet. As he said, I expect Villain to either check flop or check turn with most of his value hands with the exception of the very top combos. Betting twice for Villain doesn’t make a whole lot of sense unless he has sets or A9, A3. If villlain 3 barrels bluffs, good for him, I’m not putting my tourney on the line with a KK bluff catcher and neither am I bloating the pot by betting flop.

Also, not expecting Villain to raise a flop bet almost ever on that board. And as I write this, I’m now definitely expecting that did indeed happened, LOL!!!
 
Ok so UTG bet 80 post flop. And UTG+1 called. So pot now at 290.

Flop :as::9c::3h:

Turn comes :7d:

UTG should do what? At this point they have about 400 chips left as does UTG +1.
 
This is where I get into trouble. I hate KK with an A on the board. Without a read or feeling, I'm probably betting 150/200 here. But I suck at poker.
 
I think I check now.

We don't want to be in a situation where we are doing the betting for a better hand. Consider a fold if he bets, depending on sizing and UTG+1's vibe. If he checks back, I'd be thinking fire river.
 
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As I watched this hand develop (and of course at this point I don't know what either hand had) I was thinking UTG should check unless they had a strong A or a set.

Well UTG shoved. After thinking for a second UTG +1 called and turns over :ad::js:.

Anybody want to bet what the river was.....lo
 
With all due respect, that's what I call a spazz! LOL!!! "Not sure what to do so I guess I'll shove."

Pretty bad, IMO. Is Hero ever shoving almost 1.5x pot with AK+ on that board?!?!?! Snap call with AJ, no question, and I might snap call with worse As as well.

I didn't have time to respond to the turn action but, no surprise, I'd be check/folding to a bet. I like a check/call flop, check/call turn for two bets because we let Villain's bluffs in. With the flop lead and check turn, since he has no bluffs, he should be checking back his under pairs and bad As and betting his strong ones. I understand, if he is balanced he will have a couple of bluffs on his turn bet range as well but in reality on that flop texture, calling the flop bet, he might have only hands like 77-66, and a random 3 to turn it into a bluff. Many players wouldn't and just be unbalanced.
 
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