PAHWM: Broadway Cards OOP In a Full Ring (2 Viewers)

[JMC9389]

Per the title.

Eight handed in a two table event with 15 total players. Blinds are 400/800 and there are two short stacks at the table. BB with about 2400 effective and HJ with about 6000ish effective. Two players on hero's right UTG and UTG +1 have the big stacks with about 18000 and 15000 effective respectively.

Hero is UTG + 2 and has about 10,300 effective.

The rest of the cast of characters are tight, passive or tight, aggressive players that don't really get out of line too often. Info on all but two of the players is pretty solid with about 10 to 15 tournaments against them lifetime.

Hero is next to act after UTG and UTG +1 fold, and looks down at

Action?

 

[Legend5555]

How many players left? How many get paid? Antes or no antes?

 

[power13]

You're effectively the big stack now, so I would min raise to 1600. If HJ shoves and it is back to you heads up, you're getting the right odds to call lower pocket pairs and Ax, almost a correct call against AQ. You're only making a bad call against AK, AA, KK and QQ, you're blocking kings and queens, and at that stack depth villains range is very wide. Same logic with BB, but you're even in better shape odds-wise.

If both shove, I'm considering my player tendencies more, but then you have a shot to knock out 2 players and move into a strong chip lead.

Regardless you're not putting your tournament life at risk.

 

[JMC9389]

How many players left? How many get paid? Antes or no antes?

All 15 players left. 4 paid, no antes. No more rebuys, rebuy period ended before the 300/600 level.

 

[TheOffalo]

Not saying this is anywhere near the correct play, but my thought process would be to consider if I’d call a shove from HJ. If I would, then I’d raise to 2k, which should induce shove/fold from the short stacks.

 

[Legend5555]

With everyone so short stacked and with no antes, you aren't incentivized to jam the 10-15bb stack. I'd open for a min raise and call off against either short stack if they jam.

 

[KHarp1]

I'm confused, are you UTG2? In your description you state that you're UTG, but, also state that UTG is to your right. Just trying to get a clear pic.

 

[JMC9389]

I'm confused, are you UTG2? In your description you state that you're UTG, but, also state that UTG is to your right. Just trying to get a clear pic.

Edited, hero is UTG + 2. I'll get to the next action over my morning coffee in a bit

 

[JMC9389]

Moving on...

Hero looks down at KQ offsuit and notes the two short stacks to the left.

Hero opts to flat the 800. Folds around to SB who completes. The short stacked big blind looks at his cards and jams his remaining 2400 making it 1600 more to call for Hero with about 9500 effective behind.

Action?

 

[TheOffalo]

So second short stack HJ folded? Most likely call, but how much does SB have behind and does it cover you?

 

[JMC9389]

So second short stack HJ folded? Most likely call, but how much does SB have behind and does it cover you?

Yes, HJ folded. SB has very close to the same stack size. About 9500 effective after his blind completion.

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

"All in"

SB does not have you dominated (no AK AQ, QQ+) and this bet can get a small pair to fold which is a good result. It gets you heads up with the BB who you are likely to be dominating, at worst flipping. If BB miraculously has KK or QQ, so be it, you still have chips.

 

[grebe]

Per the title.

Eight handed in a two table event with 15 total players. Blinds are 400/800 and there are two short stacks at the table. BB with about 2400 effective and HJ with about 6000ish effective. Two players on hero's right UTG and UTG +1 have the big stacks with about 18000 and 15000 effective respectively.

Hero is UTG + 2 and has about 10,300 effective.

The rest of the cast of characters are tight, passive or tight, aggressive players that don't really get out of line too often. Info on all but two of the players is pretty solid with about 10 to 15 tournaments against them lifetime.

Hero is next to act after UTG and UTG +1 fold, and looks down at

Action?

Hero has 2 high cards, nowhere close to the money in what looks like a turbo format and like 12 bigs?

Shove. Position no longer matters. Get busy living or get busy dying.

 

[grebe]

Moving on...

Hero looks down at KQ offsuit and notes the two short stacks to the left.

Hero opts to flat the 800. Folds around to SB who completes. The short stacked big blind looks at his cards and jams his remaining 2400 making it 1600 more to call for Hero with about 9500 effective behind.

Flat is awful here preflop. You gave the hammer away to the blinds instead of using it yourself, now they can put you in a bad spot....which the BB did. I don't know what you do here, because I don't play this way.

I am pulling for the BB now, he knows how to play short stack poker.

EDIT: call off BB's bet, pack your shit up and go home when his Ax holds, and buy Short Stack Ninja on Amazon when you get home. Read it before next game.

 

[JMC9389]

Flat is awful here preflop. You gave the hammer away to the blinds instead of using it yourself, now they can put you in a bad spot....which the BB did. I don't know what you do here, because I don't play this way.

I am pulling for the BB now, he knows how to play short stack poker.

Spoiler alert: BB eventually ended up winning the tournament.

With 3 BB's left and being essentially blinded out, they'd be shoving with just about anything. KQ has most of what he's shoving with absolutely crushed.

 

[KHarp1]

Not to jack the thread, but, tournament play is where I'm struggling lately. My gut, if I'm reading this right, is raise to 2400. If I get a couple of calls, then good. I'm prepared to put all of them in here if I need to, I'll hope for a caller, maybe two, and hope for a juicy flop. Am I way off base with that kind of thinking?

I was a flop behind. Pre was my above move.

 

[JMC9389]

Anyway, let's not belabor this one.

After BB shoves, this is where things went off the rails for hero.

Hero decides to flat the 2400 leaving about 8000 (13ish BB's) effective behind.

SB shoves all in with a similar stack.

At this point, hero is pot committed and makes the call up against SB's and BB's

A three hits on the flop and a 9 on the turn sending hero packing.

 

[JMC9389]

So this was a hand in which I was the hero. This had a few talking points though.

I hate every way I played this hand. Having 17 BB's to start the hand was the perfect idiot zone of KQ not being an open shove, but too tight for a fold. Deeper stacked, I think a fold actually is perfectly acceptable. I started the hand a middle stack at the table, and my thinking was that I'm not getting called by worse to an open shove. Doing this over, I think this should've been an open fold pre.

There are two short stacks at the table and figured at least one would call regardless. With an open shove from anyone but the big blind, I'm flipping at best if not behind a good majority of the time.

As played, with the call, the plan should have been to get the money in anyway. A shove over the top of BB's should have gotten the A3 out with ease, but a flat let him get in the driver's seat and put me in a miserable position committed with a middling hand at best three ways. SB made an excellent play here and the runout at the end of the day was justified.

TLDR: I punted this one and should have folded pre.

 

[Legend5555]

Things in tournaments get weird when everyone is very short (20bb or less). You no longer have as much incentive to jam since everyone is Uber a lot of pressure. In a situation with antes where HERO was the sorry stack on 13bb with a more normal spread of 15-35bb stacks, an open jam is in order. But when everyone is very short, you can just open minimum on some pretty small stacks to limit your loss is people being jam and get called before it's back to you. This is a situation where survival matter A LOT.

Like I said earlier, open for min raise and probably call off against either one of the short stacks.

 

[JMC9389]

Not to jack the thread, but, tournament play is where I'm struggling lately. My gut, if I'm reading this right, is raise to 2400. If I get a couple of calls, then good. I'm prepared to put all of them in here if I need to, I'll hope for a caller, maybe two, and hope for a juicy flop. Am I way off base with that kind of thinking?

I was a flop behind. Pre was my above move.

Raising is fine if the plan is to get the money in on the flop. If you get two callers, the SPR is 1 or maybe a hair more. Best case scenario is to get heads up with big blind ahead.

 

[KHarp1]

The only difference in play I would have made is not calling pre. I would have raised to 2400. They may have been more than I should have there, but that's what I would have done. Not sure SB is getting away from his A3 in they spot, but, I would have been ok with folds, collecting a couple of blinds, or, racing with shorter stack.

 

[JMC9389]

The only difference in play I would have made is not calling pre. I would have raised to 2400. They may have been more than I should have there, but that's what I would have done. Not sure SB is getting away from his A3 in they spot, but, I would have been ok with folds, collecting a couple of blinds, or, racing with shorter stack.

2400 is just such a huge raise with the stack sizes as they are. It's definitely a "go away" type of bet that only gets called by better, IMO.

Fold pre>open jamming>2-2.5 BB raise>raising >3 BB's>flatting

I really could not have played this one more poorly at every decision point.

 

[Legend5555]

2400 is just such a huge raise with the stack sizes as they are. It's definitely a "go away" type of bet that only gets called by better, IMO.

Fold pre>open jamming>2-2.5 BB raise>raising >3 BB's>flatting

I really could not have played this one more poorly at every decision point.

I don't think open folding this is an legit option.

 

[springbox]

Tbh open folding is probably worse than flatting. I don't like the double flat though, all-in or fold when the BB raises.

 

[JMC9389]

I don't think open folding this is an legit option.

This is no dig on who I play with, but based on the cast of characters and what I know of them, I'm not getting called by worse. Best case is that it folds through and I pick up the blinds, or it folds to BB, he jams and I'm a huge favorite against a wide BB shove range.

I'm only getting called by pocket pairs and Ax where I'm behind.

 

[Legend5555]

The number of hands that will call/jam on you seems narrow enough that you just win the blinds so often as to make the raise profitable anyway. And even when the short stacks jam on you with exclusively better or the same hand, you have 40% equity. Even if they are jamming 99+, AT+, and KQ, you have 35% equity.

You just can't open fold hands as good as KQ here.

 

[kmccormick100]

So this was a hand in which I was the hero. This had a few talking points though.

I hate every way I played this hand. Having 17 BB's to start the hand was the perfect idiot zone of KQ not being an open shove, but too tight for a fold. Deeper stacked, I think a fold actually is perfectly acceptable. I started the hand a middle stack at the table, and my thinking was that I'm not getting called by worse to an open shove. Doing this over, I think this should've been an open fold pre.

There are two short stacks at the table and figured at least one would call regardless. With an open shove from anyone but the big blind, I'm flipping at best if not behind a good majority of the time.

As played, with the call, the plan should have been to get the money in anyway. A shove over the top of BB's should have gotten the A3 out with ease, but a flat let him get in the driver's seat and put me in a miserable position committed with a middling hand at best three ways. SB made an excellent play here and the runout at the end of the day was justified.

TLDR: I punted this one and should have folded pre.

By my math you have 12.8BB, no? That really limits your options, and open limping is never one of them, especially from early position.

I also think open folding KQ here is an awful option.

I think you can either min raise to 1600 and call off the BB, possibly the other short stack, but I'd say player dependent.

Shoving 12BB to take the blinds also adds over 10% to your stack and you move on to an easier spot.

Calling off for tournament life never feels good, if you're going to put your stack in, you might as well be getting some fold equity out of it.

As played I think you can limp, call the 2400 and still fold to the re-shove, leaving you 10BB. Or you can limp and re-shove over the 2400. Limp, call, call is probably the worst imaginable line as you point out.

 

[grebe]

Not to jack the thread, but, tournament play is where I'm struggling lately. My gut, if I'm reading this right, is raise to 2400. If I get a couple of calls, then good. I'm prepared to put all of them in here if I need to, I'll hope for a caller, maybe two, and hope for a juicy flop. Am I way off base with that kind of thinking?

I was a flop behind. Pre was my above move.

Seriously, go read the book Short Stack Ninja. It's a short book and easy to digest. It tells you all about how to play these types of short stack situations to make it super simple. This short, there really isnt much analysis after the flop. It's simple poker and it all starts and ends with what you do preflop. After that, it's up to the poker Dogs. The author also does a video series on red chip poker talking about how he utilizes player images and these short stack concepts to play a tournament. It's really good stuff, and whenever I am lining up to play a big tournament, I will go back over this series. He goes thru an entire MTT that is the equivalent of a $1K live event from the starting shuffle and deal to heads up at the end. It's $5/week membership to watch it...and would take you a couple weeks.

 

[Burke]

Bowwow down to the poker dogs

 

[Frogzilla]

KQo without ante is right on the edge of an opening range. Open folding is reasonable. Stack depth is weird. KQo too light to shove for 15 from this position. If you want to play it it’s either a limp or minraise. I don’t play a lot of limps and haven’t studied no ante tourney limps ever (SIDE RANT: WHY IS THERE NO ANTE) but wouldn’t be surprised to find KQo in there. I think that’s the whole point of having limps is getting to play KQo.

Limp is frog approved.

2nd decision really don’t know shove isolate or just call hoping SB doesn’t push us around. Probably depends a lot who the small blind is. Some players call and check down everything but the nuts. Call against them. Some aggro players have very few hands that could call if you reshove. Shove against them to clean up equity.

3rd decision, I dunno, dead money, line weird. KQo probably edge. Probably call.

I think you played it fine. Every spot looks marginal which means even if mistake, it’s a small mistake.