What to do with these queens? (1 Viewer)

[97destroyer]

I'm playing at a full 1/3 table. I'm only about 5 hands into the session. I've already seen 2 all ins by somewhat questionable hands from short stacks. Right now I am UTG+1 with .

Opening pre-flop action:
UTG (~$500 stack): Bet $15
UTG+1 (Hero, $470 stack): Raise $45
Fold around to BB ($~200 stack): call $45
UTG: raise to $165
Hero: ???

 

[golobos]

Fold pre.

 

[allforcharity]

What were the questionable hands, and was the betting aggression similar before going all-in (assuming post-flop)?

 

[97destroyer]

One of the all ins was post flop. I don’t recall the exact details but something along these lines:

Pre flop was pretty standard bet call, call
Flop was 7x 8x Jx
First to act bets between 1/2 and full pot.
Next player shoves about $140
Others fold

OP player calls and flips over AA
Shover flips over JT

Shover rivers 9 for straight.

The other hand was already in play when I joined the table.

 

[97destroyer]

Those were also different players in both prior all in hands.

 

[LowerBama1714]

Is villian wearing a hoodie and sunglasses?…backpack with laptop?

I’m thinking it’s a tight range wanting to get heads up…but I’m terrible.

AK-JJ…

Shove.

 

[JustinInMN]

I am probably going to shove here, especially if utg is one of the questionable players.

But that aside, folding QQ after raising feels pretty exploitable unless you have reason to believe the limp reraise is 100% KK+.

I don't think you have that data 6 hands in. Shove.

 

[97destroyer]

See corrected pre flop bet amounts:

I'm playing at a full 1/3 table. I'm only about 5 hands into the session. I've already seen 2 all ins by somewhat questionable hands from short stacks. Right now I am UTG+1 with

Opening pre-flop action:
UTG (~$500 stack): Bet $15
UTG+1 (Hero, $470 stack): Raise $45
Fold around to BB ($~255 original stack): call $45
UTG: raise to $165
Hero: calls for additional $120

BB: shoves remaining stack -- $210
UTG: calls for additional $90
Hero: ...calls for additional $90

Flop:


Pot is $765

UTG: checks
Hero: ????

 

[theshepherd]

The check is surprising, however, there are only really 2 cards that can improve your hand here... I don't see much reason to wait...

Hopefully villain has AK?

 

[JMC9389]

I would've folded pre. I would have folded to the 4 bet by UTG, but now you're committed when BB shoves. The only hand that you're beating that's 4 betting out of position is AK suited and mayyyybe Jacks. 10's or worse are getting out of the way here I think.

As played, that flop is as good as it gets. Jam.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Unless you have reason to believe UTG is prone to 4-bet light in a spot like this, no shame in dumping the queens preflop and waiting for a better spot.

 

[97destroyer]

I'm playing at a full 1/3 table. I'm only about 5 hands into the session. I've already seen 2 all ins by somewhat questionable hands from short stacks. Right now I am UTG+1 with

Opening pre-flop action:
UTG (~$500 stack): Bet $15
UTG+1 (Hero, $470 stack): Raise $45
Fold around to BB ($~255 original stack): call $45
UTG: raise to $165
Hero: calls for additional $120

BB: shoves remaining stack -- $210
UTG: calls for additional $90
Hero: ...calls for additional $90

Flop:


Pot is $765

UTG: checks
Hero: jams for remaining $215

UTG: calls

Turn:
River:

BB flips over
UTG flips over

I was hoping my shove would get AK to fold but with a flush draw that clearly wasn't going to happen. I'm really wondering if I should have folded instead of calling BB shove when UTG called the BB (Hero: ...calls for additional $90). Thoughts?

 

[allforcharity]

Barf.

 

[JMC9389]

You're pot committed calling the four bet with about the same amount behind with a SPR of almost as low as 0.25 going into the flop.

You have the correct odds to check/call or donk jam pretty much any flop that doesn't have an ace or king. Unlucky that another player had your outs but you're pretty much up against exactly what I thought you were, at the bottom of the range at that.

Oh well, GG, rebuy.

 

[ngmcs8203]

For simplicity’s sake you should be flatting queens preflop to his 4bet 100% of the time. If you are into mixing it’s like 2/3 a call and 1/3 a fold.

As played you’re going to go broke here but that’s fine. It was played fine.

 

[BigE97]

Would always flat his 4-bet there. If an A or K comes on the flip I might give up but otherwise a jam at those stacks. But maybe I’m just not good enough to lay down Queens pre :/

 

[DrStrange]

Hero has a sample of five hands. Five. I would be hard pressed to build any reasonable villain reads outside of the most extreme situations.

Short stack play should be aggressive. The one example hero offers we have a short-stacked villain with a good draw plus top pair vs whatever range he gives to villain. I am not seeing this as particularly wild & crazy.

I am not sure hero's villain reads should play much of a factor. UTG isn't a short stack. We don't have any reason to think he is prone to wild play, nor should we with a five-hand sample. Perhaps with a real read we might think UTG is bum hunting. I think hero should treat UTG as a competent unknown till showed otherwise.

As played - hero isn't open folding queens preflop. Three betting is a pretty normal line. The is a fancy play open to hero - flat and hope to back raise. But with no useful reads that seems a bit dodgy. ( and if Hero does that, BB is going to raise and Hero will not be finding a fold very easily )

The only decision for hero comes when UTG 4-bets preflop. Fold / flat / jam ??? this seems like a fine place to have a discussion. I could make an argument for each option. I lean jam, but haven't put a lot of thought into that opinion. ( I am thinking that UTG's range is over weighted to AK vs AA/KK. plus UTG has to have some chance of a crazy range or is trying to isolate the BB. )

Post flop is trivial. Hero flops an over pair with a SPR of "tiny". Jam it in, but expect villain to call with most if not all his range. Easy poker this time - the flop plays itself.

It seems to me there was only that one tough decision after the four bet. Otherwise, Hero was destined to go bust on the hand.

DrStrange

 

[SwissChip]

Nice pot!
You‘re always smarter afterwards…
A nut flush draw is hard to get folded.

Queens are the new Jacks ; )

 

[Legend5555]

I think given the UTG raise and 4 bet against a +1 3 bet that you can make an argument for folding pre at these stakes and stack sizes. It may seem nitty, but this is a tight configuration at stakes where players rarely 4 bet light. Unless you think the pool is capable of showing up with JJ and some A5s, A4s bluffs then you are just getting it in bad. You can pretty safely assume you are always getting called when you jam. And spr is going to be so small going to the flop, that it's unlikely villain will fold there either (as is evident in what actually happened).

You are only 40% against a range of QQ-AA and AK. Even throwing in JJ and A5s makes it 50/50. Granted you get A5 to fold when you jam, but that's only 4 combos of his range. And the rest of them probably aren't folding.

 

[LowerBama1714]

I called it.

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm really wondering if I should have folded instead of calling BB shove when UTG called the BB (Hero: ...calls for additional $90). Thoughts?

It may seem nitty, but this is a tight configuration at stakes where players rarely 4 bet light.

My concern is whether or not this fold can be exploited. I think the 3-bet pre is pretty standard, but I am also going to do this with JJ (and probably TT as well unless I think the opener is unusually tight), so I think that is my 3-bet-fold candidate if I am constructing a range. That said, probably an argument that folding QQ might be us exploiting a villain that 4-bets infrequently enough where we would believe it's only QQ+ in that range. But again, I think since I would consider that fold to be an exception, I'm not going to assume I have the data to make it on the 6th hand of play in a new table.

(Side note: I do have a tendency in these threads to advocate against most hero folds, because these strategy threads disproportionally end in bad beats compared to actual game play. So that's why my instinct is to play for all the chips, knowing frequently we will run up against a monster/get outdrawn, but in )the long run it will show a profit.)

You are only 40% against a range of QQ-AA and AK. Even throwing in JJ and A5s makes it 50/50.

I will point out, we are gladly taking 40% or 50% in a cash game pot that's looking to lay us at least 3-2 if not 2-1.

 

[Legend5555]

I will point out, we are gladly taking 40% or 50% in a cash game pot that's looking to lay us at least 3-2 if not 2-1.

But that's calling it off all in pre with odds. This isn't that. I get not wanting to be exploited, but that's not something I'm too concerned with at 1/3.

 

[ngmcs8203]

In a standard situation where there is no read on players, UTG could be 4-betting preflop with A5s, AQs, AK, JJ+. You're a coinflip against that preflop. If you jam you are likely not getting called by A5s, AQs, JJ. Now you've gone down to 40% equity. If you want any chance of getting away with queens, you aren't jamming preflop, especially deep stacked.

On the flop against JJ+, AQs+ and AKo you again have 40% equity.

 

[97destroyer]

Thanks for the insights everyone. I feel my decision to pre-flop call the UTG 4bet (versus jam) left the door open for BB to jam and start the avalanche. After the BB jam and UTG call, I think I was stuck... only $90 more into a pot of $675 -- pot odds too good even though every red light in my head was flashing. I tanked on this for a bit. Then when the flop came and UTG checked I thought I had at least a chance to get heads up with BB or win a side pot... but villain's flush draw killed the plan.

 

[JustinInMN]

Thanks for the insights everyone. I feel my decision to pre-flop call the UTG 4bet (versus jam) left the door open for BB to jam and start the avalanche. After the BB jam and UTG call, I think I was stuck... only $90 more into a pot of $675 -- pot odds too good even though every red light in my head was flashing. I tanked on this for a bit. Then when the flop came and UTG checked I thought I had at least a chance to get heads up with BB or win a side pot... but villain's flush draw killed the plan.

FWIW, I think @DrStrange summed it up well, how to respond to the limp-4-bet was the only decision point in the hand. As played, with no A or K on the flop you need to commit to the flop, no matter whether you think anyone can fold. And really, it's tough for a villain find a fold for $210 with well over $700 in the middle. I think most AK combos with one-heart make that call, not just .

Preflop, I think I do prefer the shove to the call however, especially with the BB yet to act. The call makes the pot so big compared to stacks everyone is going to get stuck to it. The BB is so shallow he's clearly in a fold for shove position. If you had shoved yourself, you could have knocked the BB out (unlikely though given he had QQ in this case) to face UTG heads up. If their hands had been reversed (and I assume they could have been) that would have been the best possible result for you to fold out AK and play a big pot with overlay against QQ.

The only upside to the preflop call is that you might get a chance to fold if an A or K flops, but I think that's a more valuable approach with a deeper stack and a relatively smaller pot, personally.

The fact AK was in UTG's range, however, I think makes it okay that you decided to continue, regardless of the runout. And you had the best of it when the last of the chips went in, just unfortunate the wrong card hit the turn and you had no way to improve.