PAHWM: Broadway Cards OOP In a Full Ring (1 Viewer)

[JMC9389]

KQo without ante is right on the edge of an opening range. Open folding is reasonable. Stack depth is weird. KQo too light to shove for 15 from this position. If you want to play it it’s either a limp or minraise. I don’t play a lot of limps and haven’t studied no ante tourney limps ever (SIDE RANT: WHY IS THERE NO ANTE) but wouldn’t be surprised to find KQo in there. I think that’s the whole point of having limps is getting to play KQo.

Limp is frog approved.

2nd decision really don’t know shove isolate or just call hoping SB doesn’t push us around. Probably depends a lot who the small blind is. Some players call and check down everything but the nuts. Call against them. Some aggro players have very few hands that could call if you reshove. Shove against them to clean up equity.

3rd decision, I dunno, dead money, line weird. KQo probably edge. Probably call.

I think you played it fine. Every spot looks marginal which means even if mistake, it’s a small mistake.

Agree that stack sizes were the perfect storm to make this a difficult scenario to navigate. If I were to do it over again I would open fold. In this game specifically, I'd only be getting called on a jam by better like a pair or Ax. BB can literally have anything here. As played, a jam over the top of BB to get SB out was the way to go to lose the minimum.

I have to admit I didn't give SB credit to have that reshove in his arsenal. He's not as tight as I thought he was evidently. That's my move to limp/shove with a monster to try to collect the bounty/smaller stack

 

[Frogzilla]

Agree that stack sizes were the perfect storm to make this a difficult scenario to navigate. If I were to do it over again I would open fold. In this game specifically, I'd only be getting called on a jam by better like a pair or Ax. BB can literally have anything here. As played, a jam over the top of BB to get SB out was the way to go to lose the minimum.

I have to admit I didn't give SB credit to have that reshove in his arsenal. He's not as tight as I thought he was evidently. That's my move to limp/shove with a monster to try to collect the bounty/smaller stack

There is a bounty in play?

That changes things.

What’s the bounty as % of buy-in

 

[JMC9389]

There is a bounty in play?

That changes things.

What’s the bounty as % of buy-in

No bounty this game. Was just saying how SB ripped my own move right out of the book and played it back at me.

 

[MrCatPants]

One thing I was confused by is all 15 players being left when the biggest stack at the table is 20BB - seems like this group plays really conservatively overall? In my events of this size, by the time we get to this level there's usually at least a couple players who are above double starting stack and a few bust outs.

Depending on your image at the table, the middle position flat is not great. it shows weakness and incentivizes other players to enter the pot or the short stacks to shove with any pair or Ax, two broadways type of holding. To me this is either a 2-2.2x open, or fold.

Subsequent decision, I'm probably reshoving to isolate. SB's complete is weak.

 

[JMC9389]

One thing I was confused by is all 15 players being left when the biggest stack at the table is 20BB - seems like this group plays really conservatively overall? In my events of this size, by the time we get to this level there's usually at least a couple players who are above double starting stack and a few bust outs.

Depending on your image at the table, the middle position flat is not great. it shows weakness and incentivizes other players to enter the pot or the short stacks to shove with any pair or Ax, two broadways type of holding. To me this is either a 2-2.2x open, or fold.

Subsequent decision, I'm probably reshoving to isolate. SB's complete is weak.

First paragraph is correct. All of the players play a pretty tight, sound game in which there's not all that much getting out of line. Some more passive than others but most try to pick their spots. My best recollection was that thr two players to my right were the big stacks. Thinking back, UTG probably had more than the 18k than mentioned in OP, was probably closer to 21 or 22k.

This hand was a calamitous series of mistakes from my end, but not reshoving to isolate after the BB shove was the worst one. After SB shoves, I felt more-or-less committed to the hand and just hoped to spike a K or Q on the flop to the Ax hands and middling pairs that they may be doing this with.

 

[MrCatPants]

First paragraph is correct. All of the players play a pretty tight, sound game in which there's not all that much getting out of line. Some more passive than others but most try to pick their spots. My best recollection was that thr two players to my right were the big stacks. Thinking back, UTG probably had more than the 18k than mentioned in OP, was probably closer to 21 or 22k.

This hand was a calamitous series of mistakes from my end, but not reshoving to isolate after the BB shove was the worst one. After SB shoves, I felt more-or-less committed to the hand and just hoped to spike a K or Q on the flop to the Ax hands and middling pairs that they may be doing this with.

As played I'm trying to think if you should be able to find a fold. 3 ways as played, you're at least behind one Ax hand. And may be behind a pocket pair or fighting with other broadways that have you covered. You would have gotten away only losing a quarter of your stack.

Ran a quick calculator - if BB is doing this with a top 15% hand and SB is doing this with a top 25% hand you've got about 27% equity. The decision is to put in an additional 8k to win approximately 15K (or potentially only 8k if you only win the side - but not going to overcomplicate the math). You're only getting about 2:1.

Think it's a fold as played? Am I looking at this right?

 

[JMC9389]

As played I'm trying to think if you should be able to find a fold. 3 ways as played, you're at least behind one Ax hand. And may be behind a pocket pair or fighting with other broadways that have you covered. You would have gotten away only losing a quarter of your stack.

Ran a quick calculator - if BB is doing this with a top 15% hand and SB is doing this with a top 25% hand you've got about 27% equity. The decision is to put in an additional 8k to win approximately 15K (or potentially only 8k if you only win the side - but not going to overcomplicate the math). You're only getting about 2:1.

Think it's a fold as played? Am I looking at this right?

Nah, you're right. The math says that there's fold equity here. Just frustrating to lose 2400 in chips for nothing. But as played, there were better spots to look for a double up.

It's a tighter spot if there's bounty implications, but that wasn't the case.

 

[Frogzilla]

As played I'm trying to think if you should be able to find a fold. 3 ways as played, you're at least behind one Ax hand. And may be behind a pocket pair or fighting with other broadways that have you covered. You would have gotten away only losing a quarter of your stack.

Ran a quick calculator - if BB is doing this with a top 15% hand and SB is doing this with a top 25% hand you've got about 27% equity. The decision is to put in an additional 8k to win approximately 15K (or potentially only 8k if you only win the side - but not going to overcomplicate the math). You're only getting about 2:1.

Think it's a fold as played? Am I looking at this right?

Need to factor in the higher equity for side pot (~40%). It’s really close. Probably chip EV+ to call, but maybe slightly losing if you charge yourself the small risk premium at this stage. It’s really close.

 

[MrCatPants]

Need to factor in the higher equity for side pot (~40%). It’s really close. Probably chip EV+ to call, but maybe slightly losing if you charge yourself the small risk premium at this stage. It’s really close.

Yeah - I was thinking about this while walking my kids to school this morning. It's a complicated combination of factors, but I was thinking it should be mapped like the below? Is this ballpark correct way to look at this?

27% to win the main of 7200
and then 40% to win the side of 15800
for a call of 7900

Combined, is this a 27% chance to win both pots (23000), a 13% chance to only win the side (15800), and a 60% chance to lose both? (because all scenarios you win the main, you win the side...and then there are additional scenarios where you only with the side, but have to eliminate those where you win the whole thing)

So, weighted - (27%* 23000) + (13% * 15800) = 6210 + 2054 = 8264 in equity

So 7900 to realize 8264 in equity? Razor thin like you mentioned - would be probably be villain dependent - if you think villians lean stronger than the ranges I gave (that are probably average in this scenario) its a fold, and if they are a little wider it's a call to realize a small edge. Really close spot.